Baskets

I want to start a discussion here about a topic near and dear to Matt Hall's heart. Matt and I have debated this issue numerous times from different points, but I think that the issue Matt raises is important and would like to see it discussed in a different fashion.

Matt argues that baskets are constructed in such a way that discs can too easily fly through the chains. He says we should develop a standard that doesn't allow this. He lists at least two baskets that meet his definition of adequate i.e. we already have baskets by which we could set a higher standard. Both use heavier chains and other tools to keep the disc in the basket.

My argument has always been that a good finesse shot will stay in the basket and Matt should take some off. Matt putts fairly hard (I should point out I've not seen Matt putt in some time and he has posted that he's taken a good deal of omphhh off his shot).

That said, I think Matt's position does have merit and I'd like to get a more general opinion. Let me give one example for you to think about. If you're putting in the wind, knowing you can put some heat on your shot without it cutting through changes your approach to the shot. That might be a good thing. However, we should be aware that baskets which will take more heat will change the game. Players will putt harder because they will be able to. One could argue that would be more exciting.

So the question, what do people think? Do they think that "stiffer" baskets that allow harder putting would be a benefit to the sport?

[Scoot_er]

"Quit whinning and just make the putt"


I practice putting for at least an hour a day and the thing I'm whining about is putting the putt where it needs to be and it hits the pole and comes right back at you. There are already baskets on the market which catch great but most just catch decent but will still spit 5% of solid putts. Anyway I have a basket in my backyard that catches everything and one that always screws me on my 30ft putt make percentages almost every time.

I I played a tournament in Louisiana and parked the 26th of 27 holes about10ft away and was putting for the only bird

and to move into a tie for 2nd. The basket was a Mach II which only has 18 chains compared to 24 on everything else

so I had a bad feeling to start with. It was only a 10ft putt so I just lobbed it in and it split the two outer chains (might as

well have not been there) hit the pole and came back out and rolled about 70ft down the hill. There was a decent

gallery that had to move out of the way and things got pretty quiet. I hit the putt for three in the heart and went on to the

next hole and didn't even know what to think. I ended up canning a long jump putt on the next hole that put me into a

3way tie for 2nd but was mad about that putt just a hole back. In the skins match afterward I had a 75ft putt hit dead in

the sweet spot, turn vertical, and bounce out the back.


Oh and I pretty sure blowing by would be a risk for people who putt hard (especially in the wind). It isn't even the hard putts that spit it is the softer ones too.

Putt on a Titan and try to get a spit. Discatchers are great too IMO and I want to hear anyone that doesn't like them for another reason besides the belt.

[Paw_Dawg]

So you dont want to see this basket made legal for all tourneys?

[Smokey]

Definitely!!!! Make baskets better for catching power shots. I have seen dead solid aces fly right through chains many times. There should be multi-tier chain system with the outer chains slightly lighter than the 2nd tier to allow some pentration, 3rd tier should be lighter than 2nd and 4th should be ultra-light to catch rebounded discs.

[Scoot_er]

I don't think they should catch every ace or anything just putts. We don't need crazy brick wall baskets just ones with the weaknesses taken care of.

[mark ellis]

Baskets suck. All a player can do is throw a solid putt to the center of the chains-then hold his breath and pray it stays in.

I am not refering to a weak putt on an outer edge or a putt thrown too hard. I am refering to a solid putt to the center of the chains. We all can visualize that apparently perfect putt. Just before that apparently perfect putt hits the chains no one can predict what it will do. That's ridiculous! Baskets should be designed to catch that putt.

I used to think that apparently perfect putt must have been somehow flawed. I must have done something wrong. If I only had some other form or technique then it would have stayed in. So over the years I have watched the best putters in the world. Over the years I have spent hundreds of hours practicing putting. I have tried different baskets and different techniques. To date the only superior design I have encountered is a Spiderweb. Maybe there is something else out there that I haven't tried. But except for the Spiderweb my opinion is that baskets suck.

The technology of discs is superb. My discs work exactly like I throw them. If I throw a clean line my disc will fly in a predictable way. The technology of baskets is flawed. The putt which most deserves to be rewarded is a solid putt to the center of the chains. It is this putt which is the scariest. The more perfect it looks the more likely it will bounce straight back out. How crazy is that! So I am supposed to aim at the pole and hope I miss it just by a bit?? Even then, if the disc taps the edge of the pole it glances sideways and may or may not kick out. The difference between a putt which stays in or kicks out seems to be based on the difference between tiny fractions of an inch. It is hard enough to just hit the darn pole on a putt, now I'm supposed to control it within a few hundredths of an inch?? And even if somehow I could do this tell me where the safe spot is. Dead nuts center and barely over the lower nubs and really soft?? Ok, so now I risk coming that close to the lower nubs just to protect against poor basket design? We know how dangerous it is to even touch lower nubs. Putting too low is foolish strategy. It would be like trying to purposely carom off trees on our drives. Or using an out-of-bounds road to get more distance on a roller.

The good putt which kicks out is an arbitrary and unpredictable result. It increases the luck factor in our game. It diminishes the skill factor. It makes our game more like bowling and less like golf. A solid putt to the center of the cup is good in ball golf. No one holds their breath. No one prays it doesn't jump out. But imagine if a ball golf cup was modified to reject 5 to 10 % of perfect putts. Would the game of golf be better because of it?

So lets invent the "Rejecto-cup" for ball golf. It will work just like a disc golf basket. It will catch when it feels like it. It will reject perfect putts when it feels like it. Now lets try to sell it to country clubs and world class golf courses. Lets try to convince the PGA Tour to adopt it. It will add excitement to the game. It will add intrigue. Its almost a s much fun a those trick exploding golf balls. It is sort of like mixing golf and a roulette wheel. We can expect this new Rejecto-cup will be wildly successful. Before long other major sports will be clamoring to add more luck to their games. We can see the day where Big Time Wrestling will be the purest of all sports. The world will be a much better place.

Current basket technology is an embarassment to our sport.

[C-Re']

i think the baskets should be deeper (to prevent bounce outs) and the chains all moved in closer together (smaller target but if you hit it it stays) i modified my basket this way and i have not had any putt spit out that should have stayed.

[Donnie Brooks, Mini Disc Golf Federation]

I must agree with the response from scoot er on page one. He basically says to identify the weaknesses of the basket and correct them.
I basically did the same thing when I designed the Mini Disc Golf Federation mini basket. I corrected all the problems I saw with other mini baskets and have created a professional and superior catching basket. Most of the effort came from chain design and chain arrangment. Also I created a new chain bottom arrangment that causes the inner and outer chains to gather WITH the disc instead of seperate when the disc enters the chain system. During this whole deal, I realized that a heavier chain is not the answer (for Mini anyway). I accually use a smaller lighter chain which catches much better than any of the heavier chains I tried.
Research and development is what it is going to take. I think that if you make a good hit on the chains, that it should stick.
I hate it when any disc either bounces off because of heavy chains or flys through because of poor chain design.
This is just my opinion on the subject, and again my experience is with mini baskets, not a full sized basket. But I am sure that the dynamics are pretty close. Good Luck and Peace, Donnie Brooks MDGF#.00001 PDGA#15252

[Paw_Dawg]

I agree with Matt and Mark 100%. However I dont see anything changing untill someone comes along with a goal to take disc golf as a sport to the next level. Currently its treated as a hobby with compeditive events.

[Scoot_er]

It was one of the main topics of discussion when Feldberg started the "players union" which I'm sure never left KC. LOL

Anyway a lot of the top guys think the baskets need to be fixed and as more money rests on each putt in the future I can see them pressuring the PDGA for better baskets.

[Rob Loechel]

We've all been there. While most talk is of the chains and cage, it is the post aspect I find most disturbing. A slightly shock absorbing sleeve or surface on that portion of the post within the chains would help, I believe. Discs that didn't get kicked as far away from the post would be less likely catch one of those smacked-on-the-ass chain rebound hits that send them on their way to the ground. You know the ones that seem to happen in slow motion?