The Community of Disc Golfers and About All Things Disc Golf
Let me preface this thread by saying that in general I don't get easily annoyed. I am 52 years old and have been discing on a regular basis for the past 17 years. I have played tournaments both as an advanced amateur and as a pro. In other words, you might call me somewhat of a seasoned veteran. I have never taken money or prizes in tournament play but I have had some decent rounds and I do win from time to time in the local doubles leagues. I have not played tournaments in the past few years but if I did I would be competing in the Grand Masters category.
That being said, here are two particular things that do annoy me and I wish that people would not do.
1) Please don't show up for random draw doubles and then complain when you get a certain partner. It is random draw doubles. There is the possibility of having to play with anyone from the best player down to the absolute worst player. I am neither. That is the nature of the beast. About two weeks ago I got paired up with one guy who when he sees that we will be partners puts out a huge sigh of disgust. Let me just say that does not bode well with me because when I show up I will always put out my best effort and my goal is to come in first. But as soon as I see that my partner is going to whine and complain it makes it that much harder to just play disc golf. Now there is this other element of expectation that just gets in the way. I say that you expect nothing but that you earn everything. If you think that you will win or lose before you even throw a disc then there is something wrong. Show up, do your best and let that be that.
I did play about a month ago with a guy who had previously complained when paired up with me but didn't do so on that occasion. We played decent but it was windy and we missed a few putts. We still managed to take the win because the conditions were difficult for everyone and we just stayed focused. If you watch ball golf at all you will realize that the best strategy is that of not giving up. You always fight till the end. I was really proud of this guy because on this occasion he showed that he could fight for the win.
2) Please don't give unwanted advice, especially to another player who has been around. I went out to play a casual round a couple of days ago with another local player. I wasn't really on my game that day. It happens. You have your good days and you have your bad days. I was missing putts and this guy just went on and on about his thoughts that I needed to putt with a different disc. Now I have putted with that particular disc on hundreds of occasions and generally I will bash the chains with it. Also, my mistakes were something that I understood, like not throwing the putt hard enough or simply not following through. Those are mental errors. But he kept going on and on and it was really just an annoyance. The very next day I went out and played with a younger guy who has game and a go for it attitude (he is also a much better player than the guy I played with the day before). We enjoyed ourselves, there was none of the unwanted advice and I made a lot less mistakes. I still made a few errors but overall I could tell how much better I was playing. I may have even showed him a few things.
So to anyone that I might play with I say this. I enjoy disc golf. If it becomes an activity that is more like work I will probably quit playing. I have no dreams of becoming the next world champion. It is what it is. Now can we just go out and enjoy ourselves and go for a few ace runs? Let us go out and enjoy the sport of disc golf and give each other a few high fives along the way.
Jim, I gotta say, I can't imagine anyone complaining more than you do. I hate to be that direct here, we are all supposed to get along but I find myself avoiding this site just to avoid hearing you complain that someone else is working hard to put in new courses without consulting you or that this guy has the nerve to want to have a partner that understands what partner means. I have always heard what a mess the disc community in the Springs has become and I always thought the Denver guys were just imagining or exaggerating the level to which it settled. Maybe not. I know a lot of people will not play Cottonwood because of the silly pin placements and it is such a shame, it used to be a pretty good course. The state tournament had a great run in Widefield but there is nobody even thinking about trying to coordinate an A tier in the Springs any time in the near future because of all the infighting and confusion in the local club. I am thinking doubles just may not be for you, you seem to be struggling to understand that the word partner means sharing in decisions and strategy. Sorry to everyone, I'll be going away now and please return to your regularly scheduled programming.
And I will say to you good sir that you are just 100% wrong. We have a good turnout each week for doubles and even people who come here to play from other places. I am merely bringing up the fact that there are real complainers out there who do little for us (don't show up for work days) and then complain that the basket isn't in their favorite position (different thread actually).
You seem to be one of the close-minded individuals who thinks that if someone disagrees with you that they have no point and must simply be wrong. I feel sorry for you.
I, on the other hand, will continue to play doubles and I will win sometimes. Maybe you could show up so that I have the pleasure of taking your money.
For those that choose to not play Cottonwood, well that is their choice. But meanwhile it is very busy on most days because we put in the hard work to keep it going. And two new courses are still in the works. So good luck with that pessimistic attitude.
The whole statement that "Cottonwood used to be a good course" is just pure BS. We have had to make corrections through the years because of the poor original design of the course, not to mention that we lost quite a bit of land when they did the stormwater project. It is still the same course as it used to be but now we put more effort into maintenance. Frankly, you are just insulting all of us who have spent our free time fixing things and working on the course (and have made every single work day for the past ten years).
If you feel the need to not come to this forum and engage in any meaningful discussion then you should probably leave and not come back. The rest of us will be having a discussion.
BTW, our last work day was one of the best ever. Not a sign of a local club gripped by infighting. You should probably stop listening to those rumors.
And back to topic, there are obviously people who employ one strategy or another while playing doubles. That makes sense since we are all not the same. Is one strategy better than another? I suppose it matters who you ask. Also, it would probably be a lot different if you were with a partner that you picked and were playing for some real dough in a real tournament.
But this thread was really about people giving unwanted advice and behavior of people during random draw doubles. Would anyone here want to have to listen to a doubles partner who was telling them what disc to throw or what line to take? I don't think so. That just isn't any of their business.
Sorry about all of the posting but I would like to explain exactly why this particular guy complains when he gets me as a partner. First of all, he thinks highly of himself (even though he doesn't win that much) and looks down on me. I am not what you would call a conventional player because I mainly use drivers for all of my shots. I have done this for years and everyone who knows me understands that and doesn't question my choices or my abilities. He, on the other hand, is close minded and just can't accept that. But after thousands of rounds I know that blaming the equipment is a poor excuse when you miss a shot. You blame yourself for just not executing. And when you make a shot you tell yourself "good job".
Second, this superior attitude makes him think that he can tell me how to play. I don't tell others how to play so I would expect that others would not tell me how to play. I have probably twice the number of years of experience as he does. How would he feel if I chose the discs that I wanted him to throw or told him which lines to take? There is no way that anyone would accept that kind of condescending attitude.
Finally, you can't generalize the whining of one person to mean that every single person who shows up for doubles feels the same way. I have found the exact opposite, that most people who show up for league have absolutely no problem getting me as a partner because I have won with many of them. And we are there to enjoy the sport, which seems to get lost on a lot of people in their quest to show that they are some disc golf sensei master. I think that some people really don't enjoy themselves because they get so wrapped up in the BS. As I stated in my OP, let us go out and enjoy the sport of disc golf and give each other a few high fives along the way. And when we do that good shots usually follow.
Finally, I was in the foursome last Sunday that had the winning doubles pair. I didn't see them "lay up" even once. Of course their drives were good enough that they usually didn't have to. They won by one stroke so if they had laid up they may not have won. And we all know that shots in disc golf are risk-reward. No risk will often get no reward. Sometimes you have to go for it.
While I don't really understand what you are trying to say, I do agree with you that the sport should be based on etiquette and enjoyment along with respect. We can disagree on strategies, etc. but we shouldn't look down on our fellow players because they use a different style or throw a different disc. We should respect them and realize that in disc golf like everything else there will be different opinions, styles, and strategies. Look at the guy who started bowling with two hands instead of just one. Probably more than a few people thought that he was nuts. But now he is a pro who makes quite a bit of money with "his style" of doing things. He is someone who created a whole new way of doing things. Being different isn't always a bad thing.
Let all opinions be heard but please let's refrain from making character assassinations just because you don't hold the same point of view as someone else. We should also refrain from the "it's all this way or it's all that way" mentality. There are many ways of doing things and what works for one may not work for another.
Disc golf no matter how far 'we-us' have pushed this sport, it is still in it's early stages of 'pick up' games.
Been participating for more than 20 years now from course installation, club formation, tournaments and so on.
There is no escape from people. You can't sugar coat society.
I want more and more new players in this sport, it's a passion that needs to be enjoyed.
When you throw a beautiful drive for the first time and see it travel to where you wanted it wow.
Your first ace! To see your own son throw a disc astounding farther than anyone in the local club. wow.
Unfortunately there are always a few that, for whatever reason decide that their agenda is more important than the groups.
I feel for this topic, since I too am aging (who isn't). There are always a few that 'must' win at all costs.
I say get over it and enjoy the game. Compete yes, respect and etiquette comes form those that are playing.
Seen top pros 'cheat' and many an advanced and am player alike.... it sucks.
Who wants to be a policeman and be distracted from their own game.
Unless in extreme cases, there is no need for censorship in this conversation. Not really an argument.
Disc Player Sports, you are right on again in your analysis. For me, it is all about getting out, playing the game, enjoying myself while competing and if I end up winning then it just makes it even more sweet. But while winning is a goal it isn't everything and the enjoyment of the game is not based solely on whether we win or lose while playing doubles. It is based on getting together with some friends while we enjoy a sport that we all love. This gets clouded when the goal of winning becomes the end all and that is exactly what I have tried to convey in my posts. Maybe that has been missed by a few out there. Please remember also that there is a big difference between playing doubles as a team in a tournament versus playing random draw doubles on a Sunday morning. In one case you should definitely agree on your strategy ahead of time. In the other case you really just show up and go out and do your best. They aren't the same thing.
Let people play the game like they wish to do so. And there is no need for censorship either. Let all points of view be heard whether we agree with them or not. My problem with this discussion came when it devolved into a personal attack and even an attack on a whole group of people. That was just plain out of line and actually reinforced my opinion that there are some who are less than tolerant and look at the sport with a very narrow lens.
No worries on my end at all. I self censored. This discussion was nothing compared to more mainstream sports...just think of the smack talk about Tebow from his own teammates? The Yankees dugouts over the years? This was calm and mostly rational. Much better to go play than talk, I'm out!
Rob, I don't really understand why you had to get into a personal attack in this discussion, both about my random draw doubles strategy and our collective efforts at getting new courses here in the Springs. As for the first part, there are two people involved in doubles and any "strategy" has to be agreed upon by both of them, not just one person forcing the other to play in a certain manner. If one person tries to "run the show" that is not a sign of respect for their partner. As for the second part, we are involved in growing pains at the moment but slowly moving towards getting at least two new courses. It as been difficult and there have been speed bumps along the way. In fact, I was correct that trying to design a course before getting approval for a certain piece of land would lead to problems. It did. But that hasn't deterred us and we are moving forward. And if we do get those new courses I will surely be one of the folks out there with a shovel helping with the installation.
Finally, while my doubles partner last Sunday may not have been satisfied with our score of 6 under we did beat a few teams and our overall score had nothing to do with any strategy or being too aggressive. It had everything to do with the two of us not making enough good shots or sinking enough putts. I wish that I had made a few more putts but he also missed every single putt that I missed. We did not get a single bogey in the round. And while I looked at it as the two of us probably shooting our best round while paired up he probably looked at it as wasting a round (which he probably already thought before the round). At the age of 52 I can't waste a bunch of emotion on stuff like that. Life is too short.
Sorry Jim, didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. I was just pointing out that there are several ways to play doubles and working together is a good thing. No one said anything about running the show or forcing you to change, as long as I knew you were going to run everything I would adapt my game to give us the best chance to win. I always enjoy input and suggestions about my game from anyone, I need to remember not everyone is comfortable with that I guess. Being 51 and playing competitively for a very long time has not changed that at all. Played yesterday with my 24 year old son who kicks my butt regularly now and he gives me pointers all the time. We also played with a 12 or 13 year old who noticed I was a little fast with my footwork on shorter holes. Having another pair of eyes is a benefit to continue to grow and improve my game. Enough said about this for me.
That's cool Rob. I went out today and played with some old schoolers. We all use different discs and techniques but we all were just out having fun and bombing some shots. In fact there were two guys watching some of the bomb shots. I wasn't really bombing it, just trying to get it out there. But it was a fun round and no advice was given about what line to take or what disc to use. I did ask a couple of times ask what disc someone had thrown and on one hole I mentioned seeing some guys use a certain line to get to a basket. But there was no lecturing.
The game for me is played so much in the distance between my two ears, it is very much a mental game for me and I get a lot of that from watching hours of ball golf on TV. For me it is all about course management and round management. That means not letting the missed or bad shots get to you and always keep thinking about what score you can get to. I think that gets lost on some people. I have practiced and honed this mental game because that allows me to compete.
I do like to work on my game and if something isn't working right I do want to figure out why. I can generally do that on my own because I understand my game. Today (and for the past week) I had been throwing almost perfect putts that were hitting the front of the rim. So I took a moment to repeat things and see what I was doing. I found out that I wasn't releasing off of my back foot. Problem solved.
It is much better when I get the diagnosis myself instead of someone saying that I shouldn't be putting with my Banshee (or TeeBird or Sidewinder or Aftershock). I know that the disc is not the issue (the putt is coming up short but is otherwise dead on target). But there are those who just think that they know it all and if you don't take their advice you won't play well. They also can't accept the fact that someone would choose to putt with a driver (yes I do and I have sunk many putts with said disc). I just tell people that I know what I'm doing and when I can the putt it is the proof. Playing with the guy I mentioned in the OP just made me way too self conscious and took me out of my game because he made everything into an issue and frankly wasn't helping me in any way, shape or form. Not helpful in the least.
any and all communities of any size will ALWAYS have it's disagreements... it's a byproduct of humanity's free thought.
that being said, sometimes the thing to do is just to walk away from or avoid the person you have a disagreement with. I personally would just not play with someone who I feel is a detriment to my enjoyment of the round.. if that means not playing in the doubles that week and just throwing a round well so be it. but know this.. in the situation you described, no amount of arguing will do anything but stress out the day for everyone... maybe it's just time to be the bigger man in the situation.