Another rule question

A player on our course recently threw a thumber that came down on top of the basket.  The disc landed with enough force to wedge itself halfway through the upper entrapment section.  It was ruled a drop in birdie on the course, because it was in the upper entrapment area.  So, I thought I would ask you guys if you agreed.  Second part, if it had wedged hard enough to make contact with the chains would it make a difference?

Looking forward to your answers.

[AK Discer]

I've seen this same thing happen and we ruled it a drop-in birdie as well...I'm curious to know the absolute answer on this as well

[Nic777]

Im no rule expert, but I think if it has to be touching the chains or (lower) basket to be holed out.

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

Wedged, resting or hanging from a a nub on top the basket does not count.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Barely touching the chains would not be "supported by the chains" which is required for holing out.

[Disc-O Golf]

Touching the chains but supported by the top is NO GOOD.
Mark the lie directly underneath with a mini marker and putt out to finish the hole.
The rule reads..."supported by chains or basket".
I have seen them go through the top and become supported by chains.
You can view the Rule Book online at PDGA.com.
Knowing and following the rules can improve your disc golf scores and skills.
A Rule book costs $3...buy one and stick it in a zip-lock bag and leave it in your golf bag.
Review your rule book often until you know the rules without looking them up.

[Brandon Swanson]

If it's touching the chains how can you prove that it's not being supported by it in some way. The rule does not read "solely supported by chains," but merely "supported." It could be supported both by the top of the upper entrapment section AND the chains. Maybe I'm just trying to be cantankerous because I don't like ambiguous rules, but if this happened to someone on my card I would rule in favor of being holed out if it was touching chains. The situation described by Chris does not count however.

[Disc-O Golf]

If your group cannot come up with the correct call at a tournament, you are allowed to get the TD or a Certified Official, like me, to make the call for you.
Questionable? Benefit always leans toward the player.
The Tournament Director has the last say on what the call is.
Get the TD!

[Brandon Swanson]

In tournaments I've played in it's hardly ever been a reasonable decision to go and find the TD or an official. The rules are set up such that a group makes its best attempt at a rules interpretation. If you are in disagreement about the majority ruling of the group then the player plays a provisional and brings it up post round to the TD. So you'd drop in your gimmie and mark both scores on the card.

BTW, not all situations have a "correct call." There is room for interpretation and opinion within the rule book. Not a lot, but it's there in ambiguous phrases and wording. The TD does their best to make the right call and they have final word, but just because they are an official does not mean they are immaculate. And because you're an official doesn't mean that you know the rules any better than someone who (like me) has read the rules cover to cover ten times, but doesn't for financial reasons renew membership or pay to take the officals test.

[AK Discer]

well said and true, I've had the same issues before during a tourney. The official thought it was one thing and it was actually the other and they knew (in their mind) that the call was correct because they were an official and the rest of us weren't.

[Donny Olow]

Nice Shot , any Pictures ?

[Chris Goodrich]

Thanks for the responses so far guys.
Donny - I wish there was a picture, I think it would be a neat one to see.
Chuck - I was hoping you'd reply with the definitive, thank you.
Disc-O: I have two copies of the rule book in my bag at all times, the extra is to hand out to new players when the show interest in learning. I asked the question because I wanted to see how the community decided/felt about the rule. The shot was ruled correctly on the course. It bummed the guy out even more when because the conversation started when I told his friend that the shot he had wedged into the lower cage was a true ace (his first). He got a happy look on his face and described his shot and I had to watch him deflate when I told him it wouldn't count (his oh so close to first ace, builds character right?).

For looking up purposes the rule is 803.13 B which reads, "Disc Entrapment Devices: In order to hole out, the thrower must release the disc and it must come to rest supported by the chains or within one of the entrapment sections. This includes a disc wedged into or hanging from the lower entrapment section but excludes a disc resting on top of, or hanging outside of, the upper entrapment section. The disc must also remain within the chains or entrapment sections until removed."

The first bold outlines why the disc that I mentioned didn't count. The reason I asked you guys about it touching the chains is because of the second bolded section. As Brandon noted there is an ambiguous phrase. "within the chains or entrapment sections (plural)." Which I would read as within the parabola of the chains or on/in the lower entrapment section. But, since the upper entrapment section is exactly that an entrapment section, the disc is firmly wedged into that puppy and at least partially within the parabola, I can understand why someone would read it differently.

Either way, I would rule it as a 2 (as long as he managed to drop in from below the basket, but I like rules discussion on these forums.

[AK Discer]

I'd hope he'd be able to drop in another disc for the deuce being that close....either that or he had a serious epileptic seizure.