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Okay, lets have it. I'm tired of getting randomly sniped in other posts about the Challenger coming from a mold copied from the Aviar. I want it all at once and once and for all. Any evidence you could supply me to support this claim would be nice, but not necessary. Unsupported and unitelligible rants are more amusing anyway. I want all of you Discraft haters to come of the woodwork, so that I can observe you in the light.

Also, if Mark Ellis, Terry Calhoun, or Chuck Kennedy would be so kind as to post on this thread and forever end the rumor that the challenger is a cloned aviar, that would be nice, as people actually listen to you guys.

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your just scared, you bunny rabbit!
How much do the robes cost when you join the Innova Cult? I will drink the Aviar flavored Kool-Aid too.
Jamie said:
I think you are misplacing some anger Brandon. I don't hate the Challenger...it is an inanimate object. It is hard to hear the tone in text but I heard yours. Your scared. Like a bunny rabbit. Anything with the Innova logo is going to scares you...so put a Challenger on a string and drag it through South Boston...thanks for coming out. Brandon, if you are comfortable putting with a Cloned-Aviar...it's cool with me.

Yeah, now we're talking! But I think it is you who are scared. You have conceded that the challenger is on the level with your hallowed aviar when you call it a clone, but I return no such honor. The challenger is the superior putter. :-P

All of my drivers are Innova, but I have a lot of tourney stamped discs, so you're probably right...there's something about that Innova logo that makes me want to stick my head in the sand and whimper. The discs are good though. My father was killed in a freak stamping accident at Innova. Thanks for bringing back the painful memory.

You lost me with the bit about South Boston though...
mark ellis said:
I am not a reliable historian on this topic because I have always loved the Magnet and haven't paid much attention to the Challenger. I believe the Challenger was created when Cam Todd came onto the Discraft Team. Cam had previously been sponsored by Innova and putted with Aviars. Cam wanted a putter more to his liking and the Challenger was designed. I'm sure the Challenger has some basic similarities to an Aviar but if you look at the numerous versions of the Aviar, you will notice lots of variations in molds and plastics.

Aviars, Magnets, Challengers, Wizards and Omegas are all pretty similar discs, especially when used for putting. If you are only throwing a disc 30 feet or so at slow speeds none of them are going to fly all that differently. Putting is more about feel than flight patterns.

While I am a lawyer, I am not Discraft's lawyer and have only passing knowledge of patent law and the lawsuit among Innova, Discraft and Lightening. My basic (but possibly flawed) understanding is that while Innova's patent on the beveled edge disc was in effect, Discraft, in settlement of the lawsuit agreed to pay Innova a stipend for the beveled edged discs it produced. I think Discraft, if it chose to do so under the settlement, could have identically knocked off the Aviar. Obviously they chose to make noticeably distinctive disc.

I would guess that a hard Challenger flies pretty similar to a stiff Big Bead Aviar as a driver. Of course, I don't throw either disc as a driver. I throw hard and soft Magnets. The Aviars I liked best were the old Beadless Aviars.
\

Ah! Burned by my own phone a friend. So it seems that though the challenger is distinctively different from the aviar, it was created to be "aviar-like."

Incidentally, I want to become good enough that I can tell a disc company that I want them to make a disc for me! Cam Todd: Come back! We want to see you golf again.
I've never used a Challenger before. Was not out back in the day. But, I did play around with a Magnet or "Zagnut" as we called them when they came out. I did try out a Banger GT for the heck of it but found that I had to make too many adjustments when using the disc for approaches.

I find it interesting that manufacturers and players are using the Aviar as a comparison in their advertisements and praise for their own putters. Makes me think that the Aviar inspired some newer designs. Nothing wrong with improving on another design or starting over fresh. And, if I had to putt with Discraft I would pick the FLX Challengers. I think Innova needs to think about a little softer Star plastic in some of their Aviars. I picked up a Star Skeeter that is so nice and soft and very similar to the FLX plastic. Just a thought.

my 2 cents
Mike said:
How much do the robes cost when you join the Innova Cult? I will drink the Aviar flavored Kool-Aid too.

Mmmm...plasticy- with bright galvanized floral notes.

But I think you just need to buy a champ roc.

I'm not a one or the other person, I throw mostly innova in fact...I just got tired of people ragging on my favorite putter and I wanted to stir things up a bit!
The STAR Aviar is not just not-soft, it's freakin hard and in 2+ years of throwing it, it never did soften up much at all. I would love to see the FLX-like Aviar and got tired of waiting, so I go with the Omega SuperSoft- it's not FLX-y in grip but it does have a similar soft structure and is hard to tell apart from the beadless Aviar.

nitegolfer said:
I've never used a Challenger before. Was not out back in the day. But, I did play around with a Magnet or "Zagnut" as we called them when they came out. I did try out a Banger GT for the heck of it but found that I had to make too many adjustments when using the disc for approaches.

I find it interesting that manufacturers and players are using the Aviar as a comparison in their advertisements and praise for their own putters. Makes me think that the Aviar inspired some newer designs. Nothing wrong with improving on another design or starting over fresh. And, if I had to putt with Discraft I would pick the FLX Challengers. I think Innova needs to think about a little softer Star plastic in some of their Aviars. I picked up a Star Skeeter that is so nice and soft and very similar to the FLX plastic. Just a thought.

my 2 cents
Now the omega ss is made from the aviar mold...there is a good comparison.
Mike said:
How much do the robes cost when you join the Innova Cult? I will drink the Aviar flavored Kool-Aid too.

its not a robe, its a suit made out of bubble wrap like the ones in the movie "dude wheres my car". hahaha i can see that.
This arguement will never end. The Aviar was the first putter made and it still remains one of the most popular. When something is the first, everything made similar to it is going to be labeled a copy. Like other people have stated, there are small differences in the radius' of the edges and depths of the rims. Why does it matter? Use what works for YOU. Don't let other peoples unfounded rants determine what you throw or what you think about discs.
Brandon, I guess you not into good movies. You didn't catch The BooneDock Saints refference. I could care less that you use a Challenger. Just one less customer buying up those OOP Aviars. If you are ever in Middle TN let me know and we can have a putt off. P.S. Challenger is still a Aviar from another mother.
Brandon Swanson said:
Jamie said:
I think you are misplacing some anger Brandon. I don't hate the Challenger...it is an inanimate object. It is hard to hear the tone in text but I heard yours. Your scared. Like a bunny rabbit. Anything with the Innova logo is going to scares you...so put a Challenger on a string and drag it through South Boston...thanks for coming out. Brandon, if you are comfortable putting with a Cloned-Aviar...it's cool with me.

Yeah, now we're talking! But I think it is you who are scared. You have conceded that the challenger is on the level with your hallowed aviar when you call it a clone, but I return no such honor. The challenger is the superior putter. :-P

All of my drivers are Innova, but I have a lot of tourney stamped discs, so you're probably right...there's something about that Innova logo that makes me want to stick my head in the sand and whimper. The discs are good though. My father was killed in a freak stamping accident at Innova. Thanks for bringing back the painful memory.

You lost me with the bit about South Boston though...
:-)... it's true though, I only watch gawdy musicals and reruns of alf.

Jamie said:
Brandon, I guess you not into good movies. You didn't catch The BooneDock Saints refference. I could care less that you use a Challenger. Just one less customer buying up those OOP Aviars. If you are ever in Middle TN let me know and we can have a putt off. P.S. Challenger is still a Aviar from another mother.
Brandon Swanson said:
Jamie said:
I think you are misplacing some anger Brandon. I don't hate the Challenger...it is an inanimate object. It is hard to hear the tone in text but I heard yours. Your scared. Like a bunny rabbit. Anything with the Innova logo is going to scares you...so put a Challenger on a string and drag it through South Boston...thanks for coming out. Brandon, if you are comfortable putting with a Cloned-Aviar...it's cool with me.

Yeah, now we're talking! But I think it is you who are scared. You have conceded that the challenger is on the level with your hallowed aviar when you call it a clone, but I return no such honor. The challenger is the superior putter. :-P

All of my drivers are Innova, but I have a lot of tourney stamped discs, so you're probably right...there's something about that Innova logo that makes me want to stick my head in the sand and whimper. The discs are good though. My father was killed in a freak stamping accident at Innova. Thanks for bringing back the painful memory.

You lost me with the bit about South Boston though...

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