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While we're on the topic of alternate formats, can someone explain the rules of Do Run Run. I've seen mention of it several times on here but am not clear on the rules. Thanks. Also if you've got any other fun games that can be played with a group of 4-5 I'd love to hear about them.

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Mark,

That is exactly what I was looking for. You have explained the game beautifully. I particularly like the trump shot idea. I played straight best shot Do Run Run on Friday with a pretty evenly matched group of 4 people but we carried over the skins and the final scores were very close so it was exciting to the very end. I plan on printing your post and bringing it with me to help explain the game next time out. Thanks for the great information.
Very good description...we are going to have to try this out one week at our Sunday Doubles. What is the best number of players to try this out for the first time?
Jeff Levin said:
Very good description...we are going to have to try this out one week at our Sunday Doubles. What is the best number of players to try this out for the first time?



~!^&*)(*&@!^&*(@#$%^&*((*&@#$%^&*()(*&^%$$%^&*())(*&^%$%^&*()(*&%$^&*(




Do Run Run was designed to be flexible. So however many show up, so long as you can still fit them within a single playing group, is the right number.

Designing the proper game for the situation is sort of like making a stew or soup out of whatever is in the refrigerator at the moment. Just figure out the ingredients (or number and level of players) you have to work with then create the right recipe.
So each time you flip for teams, there are always 2 teams, no matter how many players there are?
In case Mark does not respond, I'd say see his last post. The rules are flexible. You want to create a fun fair format. Weight it towards fair if there is money involved and fun if its just for fun.

When we have six at our micro-league we'll sometimes play that 2 versus 4 on the first flip means that the four flip again to become 2 vs 2 vs 2, but 3 vs 3 remains 3 vs 3. Sometimes it is also fair to have a no super-team rule if two players are a lot better than the rest. We would either play no super teams (the advanced player and the 5X world and national champ cannot be on the same team in our group] or the super team gets totally burned by having to play worst drive or worst first two throws on the hole. But we don't play for money.

Jeff Levin said:
So each time you flip for teams, there are always 2 teams, no matter how many players there are?
Jeff Levin said:
So each time you flip for teams, there are always 2 teams, no matter how many players there are?



!@#$%^&*())(*@!!@#$%^&*()@!#$%&*()


You divide the group into however many teams the group chooses. If there were 5 players then it is 2 vs. 3. If there are 6 players you could do 3 teams of 2 or two teams of three. At 7 you probably go 2, 2 and 3, etc.
Mark,
I think your explanation of Do Run Run is adequate, but like you said playing with an experienced "Do Run Runner" would be the appropriate introduction. I have to respectfully disagree on your Wolf take however. I think that Wolf is quite fair and gives each player (regardless of ability) different opportunities to win skins. I enjoy playing Wolf for the same reasons Trumped sounds interesting to me, and that is the strategic aspect of the game. The added feature to Wolf is the element of chance! It is not unlike poker, in regard to the Wolf selecting his/her partner, will the next player throw a better shot, or should I claim Wolf on my own shot? I do understand your dislike of a game that could encourage a poor throw but in 100's of games of Wolf I have never encountered that situation and I've racked my brain trying to think of how that could occur and I've come up blank. If I understand your example correctly the wolf has not selected a partner thus by default making the last player his partner. That player has no incentive to play poorly as he/she will be credited with a skin/skins if they win the hole. Just my two cents, and yes I am a Wolf apologist!!!!! I look forward to playing some Trumped, especially with just 2 people.( not that at Morley Field you ever have a lack of players!)
Thanks for all of your contributions on this site and to Disc Golf in general!

mark ellis said:
Brian Niemann said:
Mark,
Since you're the Do Run Run guy, is there anything else I need to know that Mark Stephens did not include in his response at the beginning of the thread?

Yeah, but the game has complicated variations and the scoring can be tricky.

If the quality of the players varies a lot, the best version is straight best shot. Then it is just non-carryover skins, flipping for new teams each time a skin is hit.

If the quality of the players is consistent (no player is much better or worse than the others) then using a cycle is more fun. For cycle play, the first hole played is one format (best shot), if no skin is hit then the teams stay the same and the next hole is a different format (for example "Trumps", another game I invented and will explain below). If no skin is hit the teams stay the same and the next hole is another format (tough shot, for example). If no skin is hit then the teams stay the same and the format goes back to the top of the cycle (best shot) and the bet doubles.

If the 2nd cycle is completed without a skin being hit then the game goes to the top of the cycle and the bet triples.

So in this example the cycle is Best shot, Trumps, Tough Shot. Anytime a skin is hit, flip for new teams and go to the top of the cycle (best shot).

The cycle of formats is up to the preferences of the group and is limitless. If a group wanted to work on rollers one of the formats could be best shot with mandatory roller drives. If the group wanted to work on putting, one format could be "Lizard Abuse" (best shot until one putt goes in then worst putt-so both putts must go in to complete the hole).

Presumably everyone is familiar with best shot (called scrambles in ball golf). All partners throw each shot with the team choosing which shot to use each time until one shot holes out.

In tough shot, your opponent picks the worst of the shots from your team until someone holes out (only one putt has to go in). You, of course, get to pick which shot your opponent has to use until they hole out.

Trumps is a non-carryover best shot skins game where there are consequences to which drive the team chooses to play from. In Trumps, all partners drive. Your opponents will call which of your team's drives is the worst. You will call which of your opponent's drives is the worst. Your team can choose any of your team's drives to play from. If your team scores a lower score than the opponent on the hole you win a skin, no matter which drive is used by either team. If there is a tie and one team used its worst drive while the other team used the best drive, then worst drive Trumps the best drive and cashes the skin. So there is an advantage to choosing the worst drive to play from.

So if my team birdies from its best drive and your team pars from its worst drive, a skin is still a skin and my team wins (my team scored 2 and your team scored 3). If if both teams throw birdies but I birdied off my best drive and you birdied off your worst, you win the skin since worst drive trumps best drive on ties (both teams scored 2 but you win on the trump).

Trumps is a strategy game. Say my team throws two drives:one a hundred feet away from the basket and one 30 feet away. Your team throws two drives, both about 60 feet away. Obviously, since both of your shots are roughly the same, you will pick whichever is designated to be the worst ( your opponent must pick one as the worst). The tough choice is mine. I know you will easily par from your worst drive and have some slight chance of deucing an a long putt. The question is whether I think I can hit my 30 foot putt. If I take the best drive and miss the putt I will par and lose to your par (worst drive trump). Whoever is farthest away from the hole declares first so I have to decide whether to play for a push (my par from worst vs. your par from worst) or play for the win (my best drive 2 vs. your worst drive 3)

Trumps, btw, is a really good game to play with two players when you are learning a course (like the day before an out-of-town tournament). It lets you drive twice and forces you to play from difficult lies.

If there are 5 people playing the game, the teams will be 2 vs. 3. In best shot the team with 3 players has the advantage (more drives to choose from). In Trumps and Tough Shot the 2 person team has the advantage (the more drives there are the worse the worst drive might be).

For scoring the losing team loses one betting unit for each skin lost. I will save those details for later.

Do Run Run is designed for groups over 4 players. It will work with any sized group you will tolerate (after 9 players groups play too slowly for most players to enjoy). You can add or subtract players after any skin is hit. You can change formats after any skin is hit. Due to the complexity of the rules it may be best to play with a Do Run Run veteran at first.

For anyone who has read this far and tried to figure out the rules based on my description, I would appreciate finding out how confusing my explanations are. In practice, the rules and strategies become clear pretty quickly. Reading it on paper is more difficult.
meant to cross-post this the other day

#@^%$#@%^$#%^$#^#&^#^%$#^%$#%$#@%$# as mr ellis would say;)


spiced up the 3man game the other day by playin every 3rd hole cali against the other 2 as dubs for quarter skins, worked out pretty fair for payouts & fun to play w/ea player getting 6cali holes. Also added a strategic element by allowing the caliguy-whose always 1st on the pad- to wait & see the results of the other team's throw to determine if a cali-drive is needed, this strategy was also allowed on the upshots if the caliguy was out & still had his calithrow to use (we didn't bank any unused)...

anyway, fun format, is there an existing name?
if not Im thinkin "every3rdCali" sorta fits...

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bruce_brakel




This game should be called Sacramento
Matt Jankowski said:

Mark,
I think your explanation of Do Run Run is adequate, but like you said playing with an experienced "Do Run Runner" would be the appropriate introduction. I have to respectfully disagree on your Wolf take however. I think that Wolf is quite fair and gives each player (regardless of ability) different opportunities to win skins. I enjoy playing Wolf for the same reasons Trumped sounds interesting to me, and that is the strategic aspect of the game. The added feature to Wolf is the element of chance! It is not unlike poker, in regard to the Wolf selecting his/her partner, will the next player throw a better shot, or should I claim Wolf on my own shot? I do understand your dislike of a game that could encourage a poor throw but in 100's of games of Wolf I have never encountered that situation and I've racked my brain trying to think of how that could occur and I've come up blank. If I understand your example correctly the wolf has not selected a partner thus by default making the last player his partner. That player has no incentive to play poorly as he/she will be credited with a skin/skins if they win the hole. Just my two cents, and yes I am a Wolf apologist!!!!! I look forward to playing some Trumped, especially with just 2 people.( not that at Morley Field you ever have a lack of players!)
Thanks for all of your contributions on this site and to Disc Golf in general!





!@#$%^&*()(*&^!@#$%^&*(#@!@#$%^&*()(*&^#@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#9(as Joe Harrski might say)




Matt,

I am not a Wolf hater. Nor does it bother me what games anyone else might find joy in.

There are some games that major in fun (drunk golf, RIPT, jingles), some games which are directly competitive (divisional singles), some which are primarily betting based (carry over skins) and some which are for training purposes.

Most of games I try to create are training based with the goal to improve the skills of the players as quickly and efficiently as possible. I try to add a fun quotient as an incentive to play them more. Very few players learn to appreciate training games because they are not as directly competitive or as fun as just playing singles or purely fun games.

Most players, even tournament players, do not practice (or very seldom), they just play. Those players go as far as their talents take them then come to a screeching halt. There are a tiny percentage of players who will go out on their own and practice for hour after hour after hour ( Mike Raley, a Michigan Pro does this). I can't force myself to do this very often: it is too boring and I have trouble keeping concentration. So as a compromise I invent games and try to convince others to play them with me. My games absolutely drive some players crazy. Anything weirder than best shot doubles is beyond their tolerance. Some player cannot even handle warm up catch for a few minutes. That is fine and most of those players will never get much better unless their schedule allows them to play lots and lots.

A training game's goal is not to have the best player win. Winning or losing takes a back seat to skill improvement. Some good players hate any game where a weaker player is given a competitive advantage and they may end up losing. In my mind winning only matters in a tournament and , of course, matters most in big events. In games or rounds or leagues I always try to win but it is far more important to me that I play well and work on improvement.

Ok, back to Wolf. In most of the Wolf games I have played, no one does the math to figure out each skin's value. Rather everyone throws in a bet ($5 for example) with winner(most skins) take all or maybe second gets their money back and 1st gets the rest. So the game degenerates into screw the leader with the resulting disincentive to play well when teamed with the leader toward the end of the game.

I agree that Wolf has a luck factor like in poker. Luck improves the fun (and/or frustration) factor at the expense of the skill factor. Golf should be more about skill and less about luck. The better the course design the less that luck controls who wins. Whoever throws the best shots should win in tournaments.

I was introduced to the concept of training games by my former racquetball coach. We did them every session. The improvement and tournament success I saw in myself and the other players who trained in the program proved to me how well they work. When I started disc golf I was terrible. I had several friends tell me years later they thought there was no chance I would ever develop decent skills. Training works.

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