Yeah I have never had any luck with an understable disc for a tommy or thumb shot. However, I have noticed the biggest difference in the type of plastic. For instance, (all released at 12:00 angle) Elite X Talon very quick turning tommy or thumber great for short range or getting out of trouble in tight spots, Elite Z Talon, very slow turning huge, huge, distance, 300-400', but you need height and a lot of speed. I also like the Z Wildcat for shorter shots quick turning or scooby slide, or skip shots. On a side note, I mentioned the 12:00 release angle because that definately effects the flight line and thumbers flip faster than tomahawk throws. Some shots need to be angled differently, but just like throwing a disc backhand or forehand, it is easier to use a disc that is meant to do what you want than to try and convince it to do something it will never do. Sorry if this seems lengthy but I have thrown this shot for a long time, and could only use thumbers and tomahawk shots (due to an ankle injury) for a little over a year. I learned a lot! Now, when I throw them usually people in my group are in disbelief with how accurately and far, I can throw them. I began using the Boss a little but it has nothing on my Talon or Pulse.