How much does it cost to build a 18 hole course?

I'm sure everyone would like to own a private course. Realistically, not counting land costs, how much does a 18 hole course with multiple concrete tees cost? Please include professional design fees, tee signs etc. Anyone with experience in this area?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Unless the alterrnate pins are going to be near each other like the "green" concept used at courses like Token Creek or Moraine, there's a possibility the alternate pins will not be placed appropriately for the same skill level as the original design unless the designer knows how to maintain appropriate lengths for that skill level. That's one benefit of having an experienced designer up on the latest techniques.

[Chuck Kennedy]

AlternaTour said:

And how much cost would an experienced designer add to a project?

Depends on the designer and the going rate in that part of the country. There are some designers who charge more than $200 per hole. Others fall in the $1000-2000 range for an 18 hole course with multiple tees. The biggest factor in design cost has to do with how much clearing is required. It can take 10-20 times as long to do what's needed for a 300 ft fairway carved out the woods using a bulldozer versus using the existing terrain with little clearing other than a few branches here and there. I charge by the hour and have done simple 9-hole designs on mostly open ground near athletic fields for as little as $125 which included mileage. Then, more extensive projects with multiple trips, supervising clearing, overseeing/doing installation, doing GPS maps and signage might run $4000-$5000 for 18 where maybe up to $1000 of it might strictly be travel reimbursements.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Doing things free by people who have trained for and developed the expertise is what undermines professionalism all thru our sport whether websites, course design, teaching, not charging to play, etc. You're part of the problem if you're not charging a fair price for the obvious expertise you've developed over the years. Park departments more than expect to pay for landscape architect firms to help them with their master planning projects at way more than we charge. There is no such thing as a certified designer, just members of the DGCD group which anyone can join. However, we provide a document to help Park Departments select an appropriate designer for their project which might be someone who is not member.

No wonder we don't get the respect for the sport and are bumped in the budget by soccer, softball or hockey projects. Despite your extensive experience, it still looks like you're not up on the latest standards for hole lengths that match skill levels (few are and few validate their designs) and other things like marking OB and buncrs. You and others who are involved with design are all welcome to join.

[mark ellis]

Chuck Kennedy said:

Doing things free by people who have trained for and developed the expertise is what undermines professionalism all thru our sport whether websites, course design, teaching, not charging to play, etc. You're part of the problem if you're not charging a fair price. \.

I apologize for all the harm I have done by teaching the game without charging for my services. I further apologize for the other volunteer efforts I have done in the sport without compensation. Thousands and thousands of other well meaning volunteers need to step forth and be rightfully ashamed.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yes, I'll call you out on this. On the other hand, in a way, your'e sort of doing it for your sponsor like some other pros do and get to run wild in the factory as indirect compensation as you posted elsewhere. I've got 7000 unpaid hours and counting towards building this sport so I don't feel a need to apologize for developing the expertise that should be worth something even if you don't go to college for a degree in disc golf.

That effort is no different from a CEO of a startup company who works countless hours without pay on the hopes that someday people will be willing to pay for those services which they value. Many, many other volunteers have done this over the years and at some point it better start providing some compensation or you lose them and their expertise.

[Nibs Carter]

LOL at Mark!

mark ellis said:

Chuck Kennedy said:

Doing things free by people who have trained for and developed the expertise is what undermines professionalism all thru our sport whether websites, course design, teaching, not charging to play, etc. You're part of the problem if you're not charging a fair price. \.

I apologize for all the harm I have done by teaching the game without charging for my services. I further apologize for the other volunteer efforts I have done in the sport without compensation. Thousands and thousands of other well meaning volunteers need to step forth and be rightfully ashamed.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Why would unknowledgeable Park Departments expect to be charged a design fee for what appears to be throwing frisbees in the park? That's lack of making the case by the grass roots community that experienced design does matter. Many Park Departments simply take advantage of the local scene due to budget constraints, and why not if the locals put up with it in their urgency to get a course in rather than waiting until funds can be raised or it makes it in the budget the following year. Fortunately in Minnesota and nearby states, our Park Departments have grown to expect a professional designer to be involved, even in small communities. It's all in how the proposition has been presented over the years in the region. Now clearing fairways with chainsaws where needed is still mostly done by volunteers even in MN once the Park guys approve the routes.

Houck and I alone account for about 10% of the courses in the U.S. And Steady Ed, John David and Tom Monroe have their fingerprints all over the older courses still around. I can't think of too many good courses as indicated by reviewers other than the designers that hasn't had the influence or direct help from one of our 125 members who probably account for upwards of 40% of the 18 hole courses. Now some of the courses went in before they joined the DGCD and all of us have done freebies at some point and maybe even now, especially for maybe places like a boy scout camp. For many courses, all we do is review the design and make suggestions with the local designers that can positively impact the result and sometimes that's free or the cost of buying us dinner.

[mark ellis]

Chuck Kennedy said:

Now clearing fairways with chainsaws where needed is still mostly done by volunteers even in MN once the Park guys approve the routes.


For many courses, all we do is review the design and make suggestions with the local designers that can positively impact the result and sometimes that's free or the cost of buying us dinner.

Shame on those volunteers and shame on you too, I guess. If others are doing harm by donating their talents then you likewise must be doing harm. If doing something for free is wrong then doing something for a reduced price must also be somewhat wrong. Or am I missing something? Can you remind me again where the harm comes in?

[Donny Olow]

Newly , professional designed courses are fun to play.

[humchris]

I guess I should appologize for all the free labor I have put out there, work parties, designing a course for a friend, even giving away discs for free to help people learn to play (scary evil music plays in the background). I guess that I'm part of what's taking away the professional image from the sport, I'm an evil guy... wait now that I'm thinking about it, that's why I made the UPDGA, Un-Professional DGA, becuse we care about spreading the sport to everyone, not just those that can afford it. I'm with you Mark keep up the good work.
Keep Hucking
-Chris UPDGA# 0001

[Donny Olow]

Dohhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!! I also volunteer my time to help others !!!!

[Ben Calhoun]

Good point! Multi tees far trumps Multi pin positions. You can always just add some dirt tees if it's a $ issue, 1 sign per hole showing both tees. Mutli tees can be used at the same time, so all skill levels can play together and someone could play both in the same day. Multi pins often gets way too confusing (read my blogs- hardly any course denotes which pin is in, so its tough to find the hole and know where you are throwing at, more of a hassle than anything).