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Ok, this one is going to chap a lot of people, but if we can have a civil discussuion and just present the facts we can get through it. I really want to know, so don't think I'm just being an idiot, although I will be playing the antagonist in this disccission.
Here it is: Why is it that so many people recommend to new players that they use Putters and Mids to learn with? We have all heard some form of the statement, "Go learn to throw your putter 300 feet and then you'll understand how to throw", or some varieant on this.
I call BULLSH*T!
I think what you'll learn is how to throw your putter 300 feet.
I think a more well rounded approach to the game, learning to throw all discs and understanding the numbers and controlling your plastic purchases is a better way to go. Learning the different grips, reach back, runup, keeping things flat and straight is a better approach.
OK GUYS, KILL IT!
"... if we can have a civil discussion ... I call BULLSH*T!"
Yes. That is how to begin a civil discussion.
I agree with ya. I learned from throwing monsters to beat in leapords and rocs and wolfs. It didnt matter the more I used one disc the better I got. That was because I was learning the disc better on each shot. Even with alot of experience with a certain disc, I seem to do my best by using it primarily during a round. Something S'y
I agree completely. I think there is much to be gained from learning how to throw putters and mids well but not sure at all that it translates into how to throw a high speed driver. You need to practice throwing them too. For me, it falls into the same category as saying that by playing with people who are better than you will automatically make you a better player. Hoooey
Although my Zone has changed the game\
Well.....beyond that little number right there ayway. :)
a piece of advice I was given when I 1st started playing and has served me extremely well is:
"throw the slowest speed disc you can that will reach the distance"
now loosely translated it means don't try to throw a disc faster than your abilities will allow. when I 1st started I bought a champ boss and despised that disc blaming it for what was actually MY lack of form. you really have to work on your form before stepping up to higher speed discs. this is the core of the argument you're rallying against. and I respectfully disagree with your stance.
I think the thing is that if your a brand new player coming into the sport, Your going to build your game faster throwing mids. Mostly because they are going to show you what your doing wrong more then what a driver will. For example if you throw a roc/buzzz straight and flat its going to go straight and flat, but if you throw a wraith perfectly flat its still going to hyzer out (*new player*). So this new player will start trying to force anhyzer with the disc to get more flight.
Now as far as the 300 foot mark for a putter is a little silly, I don't think anybody is going to stick with throwing putters until they reach that mark, when they can go buy a driver that will give them that distance. Plus if you throw a driver the same way you would throw a putter its not going anywhere.
When I give advise to new players about buying disc I tell them to buy a stable mid (roc/buzzz), a fairway driver (stalker/eagle), and a lightweight understable driver (165g range sidewinder/avengerSS). Once they start turning them over then they can go to highspeed drivers.
The bad thing about understanding the numbers is that the numbers are just about useless on Innova disc. I know, I know, but look at the Boss, Destroyer, and Wraith. They all have a glide of 5, high speed of -1 and low speed of 3, but an Eagle has the same (-1,3) but with a glide of 4. That to Me says that all 4 of these disc are going to fly the same line, slightly understable then stable out at the end, because other then the speed number they all fly the same. However anyone has thrown all these disc knows that they are far from the same flight. Yes I under stand that the speed that you release the disc makes the flight, but as a new player that doesn't know what there speed is, has to go off of high and low speed stability.
As are as grip, run up, reach back...ect goes, that when you need to have better players around to show what you need to change up. I know I made this mistake after years of throwing with my non throwing hand held up for balance, it wasn't until recently that a long time pro ask me why I did that. I didn't even know I had been doing it, now my distance has improved just by that little tip.
I think that Slower Speed Discs (Putter/Mids) are EASIER for someone JUST STARTING OUT to throw and get Results from. The Slower the Disc Speed, the Easier it is to throw for people that have Not learned anything about the Technique aspect yet.
I am with DOOK on the whole "Learn to throw your Putter 300ft" thing. There are MANY other discs I would rather learn to throw a 300ft. shot with. I think its pretty pointless to learn something just to say you can, but that's just me.
Now, Dookie gets 20 minutes of Table Time for starting fights..... :)
I agree with throwing the slowest speed disc possible to get you there. All things being equal; no wind, flat ground, a tree on the left and right of the basket forcing you down the middle, and with no overhang, I will throw a Fuse at that all day long. No loose translation, just a good shot choice. (For me anyway)
I certainly wouldn't recommend a Boss to any new player just getting into the sport. But....depending on how they looked after a few rounds I might recommend a River or a Leopard. I think the disc shop that I bought my first discs from recommended an XL. (The XL was a little too much, for about a couple weeks)
We agree on all but a few things.
You did recommend some drivers in there, i might not go as fast as some of those or as stable as the Eagle on the fairway choice. Glad to see drivers though. I would never recommend a Boss, Destroyer, or a Wraith to a new player.
I think some smart choices for a driver and working on form and grips for the Putter, Mids, and Drivers individually from this point would be good though. Learning to read whats going on with a mid and trying to equate that to a more nose sensative driver is just going to be confussing. Maybe once a player has been playing for a while, going back and revisiting mids in varying stabilities to start shaping shots before doing the same with a driver is a good idea though.
I think helping a new player along to understand the numbers and what they mean might be more effective for there game than handing them a mid and saying go learn this.
But we where pretty close to agreement Ron.
Have to chime in on the statement about the flights and numbers of the Eagle, Wraith, Destroyer, Boss, Orc, etc.... I throw the Eagle, Orc, Wraith and Destroyer. They are all in my bag because they do have similar flights at different speeds. Depending on how hard you throw them they all will have a slight high speed turn and a fairly strong low speed fade. If you are learning the numbers you must include speed or the numbers are useless. Of course not all the molds of each disc are accurate or the same. By trial and error you learn to find what to look for on a disc such as the pliability of the disc.... I've found that if a driver is softer and more pliable that it will fly closer to the numbers rather than when they are really stiff they seem to be way way too overstable. Also domier discs seem to be (most times) more overstable as well, compared to the flatter top being closer to the numbers..... anyways, I'm all about starting with the slower discs first (fairway drivers mids and putters) and learning to throw these first. I agree though that there is no need to throw a putter 300 ft before throwing drivers (of course that was probably just a comment thrown from the hip to tell a player how to learn how to improve their game) Definitely more room for error with the slower speeds, which may keep newcomers coming back. I know throwing a high speed driver up in the air and watching it hyzer into the ground all day is no fun. I also think that some of the players who have been around for a bit can learn a ton from doing a few rounds with their putter and then maybe a mid and putter. Cool to see how you can make a disc do many different things and sculpt many different lines. It was also an eye opener for me to see how much distance I could get with my putter when I absolutely had to..... just had to throw it higher and choose my line wisely. :)
I have learned to get my putter pretty close to 300', but if I put that much height on a River the dang thing would look like a boat flare. Also, I am dropping a nut to get the putter out that far and my form breaks down. Probably 275' is a comfortable strong limit, 250' is a really accurate solid distance for me. I feel good with that.