Referee, we need a call on this V. 2.0

Ok, so after reading DC's post about the casual play ruling, it evoked a strong memory of a ruling that occured at the state championship tournament last year in Ludington, MI. Being familiar with the course is not crucial for evaluating this event, but it helps visualize a more specific locations.

On beast, on the 7th hole you play (including the first two extra holes) its the 400+ ft shot with the pin at the top of the hill. There is a path approx. 320 ft out leading to a parking lot to the left. OB = Surrounded by cement.

2 problems; 2 questions.

First question: what does "surrounded" mean?

The path was overgrown with weeds. My disc was surrounded by weeds, and not touching any cement at all. The weeds, were surrounded by cement. Is this OB?

Second question: how do you determine if a disc is OB, if a pedestrian picks it up, the replaces it?

After I threw my drive, and it looked like it landed right before the path; the disc was not visible at all. As the group walked towards the path, a family walked by my disc and picked up. We were about 200 feet away, and still had not determined the original placement of the disc. I yelled to the kid to set it down where he found it, while running towards him. We found the disc as stated previously.

I took a stroke, and played it where it lied. Did I get screwed out of a measly but valuable stroke?

[Chainz-4-Brainz]

From what I understand, the spot your disc originally came to rest should have been where you played from. I would assume that if the exact spot wasn't determined before the disc was moved, then you should have been able to place the disc as close to that spot as possible, assuming the other players agreed to the spot.. That's just what I've come to understand from the posts in the other blog... Then again, I'm no pro.

[JeremyRogers]

part A - yes
part B- group judgment

[Ben Calhoun]

If it landed where you then found it and can be sure of that exact spot, sounds OB. If you land on a boat in a lake that's OB you're still OB for example. If you were in weeds but inside the outer OB marking line of cement, it's OB. You play from where the group thinks the disc came to rest. I'd have asked that family where it was exactly, and then if not benefit of the doubt if it cannot be determined should go to the player.

[Tino "SilverBack" Medina]

hell, if you land on a boat like Ben said, thats cool. It's O.B., but cool. Mark puts it clearly as well. Surrounded is surrounded!!

[Disc nut]

This is from the PDGA rules,not really a lost disc but moved and possibly replaced o.b.
C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that
was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.

[Disc nut]

what's the correct rule Mark?The disc was moved and possibly Not replaced in its original spot,so the benefit should go to the player
Mark Stephens said:

Trying to apply a different rule instead of the correct rule is never really a good way to solve a problem. ; )

Disc nut said:

This is from the PDGA rules,not really a lost disc but moved and possibly replaced o.b.
C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that
was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

If the majority the group thought it was OB before the kid picked it up and replaced it...then the majority should rule....and I will also add...if you play a course long enough you usally have a pretty good idea on where the disc came to rest...If you thought it might have gone OB or the Majority of your group who also know the course thought it was OB...then it probably was.

As for the other. The term everyone is looking for is "Verticality" If your disc comes to rest over an OB area without actually touching the OB surface it is still OB.

[Disc nut]

Well he said the original spot had not been determined by the group.

Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane said:

If the majority the group thought it was OB before the kid picked it up and replaced it...then the majority should rule....and I will also add...if you play a course long enough you usally have a pretty good idea on where the disc came to rest...If you thought it might have gone OB or the Majority of your group who also know the course thought it was OB...then it probably was.

As for the other. The term everyone is looking for is "Verticality" If your disc comes to rest over an OB area without actually touching the OB surface it is still OB.

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

Well he said the original spot had not been determined by the group.


Someone had to make a determination one way or the other in order for him to continue....right? He took the stroke either by the determination of the group majority or on his own detemination. I guess until he responds we won't know that. What did the group think? Did they have any input?..or did he just assumed it was OB (without consulting with the group) and treated as such...If so he may have screwed himself out of a measly but valuble stroke.

[Disc nut]

I conker
Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane said:

Well he said the original spot had not been determined by the group.


Someone had to make a determination one way or the other in order for him to continue....right? He took the stroke either by the determination of the group majority or on his own detemination. I guess until he responds we won't know that. What did the group think? Did they have any input?..or did he just assumed it was OB (without consulting with the group) and treated as such...If so he may have screwed himself out of a measly but valuble stroke.

[Brandon Swanson]

If the group decided that it was OB from 200 feet away when it was near the edge of a small path...then I would play it as the group called it, BUT I would also play a provisional throw and then approach the TD with the situation, because you could easily argue that it was impossible for the group to tell if it was OB from that range. Ben's suggestion of asking the family is a good one, if you didn't scare them away flapping at them like an angery goose. If you don't take the provisional throw then there's no way you can have the penalty removed from your score.

You'd hole out from both the group's call throw, but then also hole out from your provisional shot and mark both on the score card, then it's up to the TD. These also work well when you don't know what the ruling should be (as in the case of the weeds on the concrete, of course the weeds are irrelevant, but if you didn't think they were, then you could take a provisional). Provisionals are great because they can save you from the tyranny of a group that doesn't know the rules of the game and forces an incorrect call on you, as did happen to me once.

In your situation, I'd say they shouldn't have called you OB unless they, and I'll borrow an NFL term, had incontrovertable evidence that your disc was OB. If there was any doubt in the group at all whether you were OB, then they'll have to live with their consciences on that one. I'd NEVER do that to someone, but I've played with people that are so insecure that they'll smudge things a bit.

[A.I.]

Thanks for all of your input guys – greatly appreciated.

Firstly – the groups response. Nobody had any conclusive evidence that it was either: totally surrounded by weeds (OB), or touching grass (not OB). As far as “re-spotting with the best of group's ability: how do you re-spot a disc that you didn't see stop, that is literally an inch past OB? This notion sounds like poppycock to me, and would not be fit for this situation. I can see how that would be perfectly acceptable if there wasn't OB within a 100 ft radius around the discs original position, but not acceptable if its a matter of an inch. They were as baffled as I was, and just as confused as to how to play it. The benefit was not given to me, but to the kid who picked it up (that he placed it exactly as he found it), and to the inconclusive visual evidence that it was originally surrounded by OB.
The only inclination that I had of it being OB was because it wasn't visible, and I knew that the front of the path was sunken in a little bit.

Secondly – the kid's response. He picked it up when the entire group was 200 feet away; nobody confirmed that he placed it right where he found it. I was too shocked to be pissed. After all, the kid was just walking to lake Michigan with his family, probably totally unaware of what disc golf even was. After putting it down, the kid scurried off. I didn't inquire because it seemed like a genuine accident, and because I didn't trust that he would tell me exactly where it was. Maybe that could have amended the outcome.

Thirdly – the verdict. I asked the group because I knew how I wanted to play it – as it lies assuming it wasn't OB before it was moved. Neither side of the argument was defensible – we all had inconclusive evidence as to the original spot (that happened to be inches away from NON-OB). Fairness wasn't the issue, it was the lack of knowledge that damaged me.
I didn't know that taking a provisional was even an option, otherwise I think this would have been the most fair result.

The only rule that I can see that may justify this option is 803.07 – Interference: “...A thrown disc that is intentionally deflected or was caught and moved shall be marked as close as possible to the point of contact, as determined by the group or an official. Alternatively, for intentional interference only, the thrower has the option of taking a re-throw.”

FYI – Internet connection is intermittent.