Rule Question about O.B. vs Lost disc

Ok so while playing a tourney this weekend, a crazy situation came up.

The hole was about 450 feet with a slight anhyzer at the end. However there was a very large pile of tree's near the basket. I would say 50 feet high and 25 yards long and 10-15 yards wide. The pile was out of bounds do to safety issues. There was area's on all side of the pile that was inbounds.

 

So here is the question. One of the guys in the group threw his upshot into the backside of the pile. after looking for his disc for 3-4 min. we told him that we could not look for it anymore do to lost disc rules. Then the issue came up, Is it a lost disc, or played as you would play a water O.B.

 

I said it was lost in a O.B. area, so he should throw with an O.B. stroke from where his disc was last inbounds. Just like it would if he threw his disc in a pond and couldn't get the disc out of the water.

 

Then a Pro Open Player said, No its a lost disc so He would have to go back to where he last threw from.

 

What should have been done here. Lost disc, rethrow shot, or O.B. rules and throw from where it when O.B. at.

[Dan Wilkinson]

I'm looking forward to Chuck Kennedy's answer on this because I had a similar situation in a tournament happen to me and it depended on who you asked as to what answer you get. My drive went over an 8 foot tall fence behind the basket and disappeared into the woods that was part of a zoo next to the disc golf course. We saw exactly where it went out of bounds at but it was also a lost disc. I ended up reteeing with a stroke penalty. If I could have played it from where it went out at I could have easily gotten a circle 3 on the hole.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Your disc was OB. Think about it. How often do people find their discs in murky or deep OB water? Sometimes half, sometimes only 10%? Why is it that people think a disc is obviously OB in water when you can't find it but for other types of OB areas, if you can't see the disc, it's lost, even when it obviously went over the fence in your example.

[steve sevonty]

If it went o.b it is o.b first, then if you cant find it it is a non-issue because it was O.B to begin with play it as o.b

[Chuck Kennedy]

You were correct. If the group feels there's a good chance the disc is "lost" in an OB area, regardless whether it's water, a fenced in area or this pile of logs, then your OB options for the next shot are available unless the TD restricted them. So the player could have played from the last point inbounds or retee.

[camera guy]

All this can be found in the PDGA rules section, also keeping a rule book in your bag is a good idea

http://www.pdga.com/rules

specific rule...803.11b

803.11 Lost Disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. If the throw was made from the tee, the player will re-tee for the next shot. If not made from the tee, the group will determine the approximate lie from which the throw was made, and the player will throw again from that lie. The director may designate a drop zone for lost discs on a particular hole. If a drop zone is provided, the player may throw from there instead of the previous lie or the tee. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that
was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.  

D. A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced in its approximate lie as agreed to by a
majority of the group or an official with no penalty.

 

[Chuck Kennedy]

Sorry Camera Guy but the OB rule is the one to look at where it covers the possibility of being lost.

803.09A In order to consider the disc as out-of bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area.  In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

[Eric Day]

Camera guy. A rule book does not help If two people are arguing over the two possible rules. As far as I know the rule book does not say that if a disc lands O.B. and cannot be found then its a lost disc penalty like your trying to say.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Eric, look at my post right above yours.

[Eric Day]

I was typing it as when you posted. After I refreshed the page I saw that you beat me to it lol

[Dan Wilkinson]

So if the situation comes up again and the group ends up arguing about which rule applies you should play it both ways - re tee for a provisional and play it where it went out at and then let the TD decide after the round and hope he has common sense like Chuck :-)

[Trae-Bear]

PROVISIONAL

[Donny Olow]

Check these Rules out :

 

803.09 Out-of-Bounds

A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and
completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be
at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the
water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds.   In order to
consider the disc as out-of bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area.  In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from:
(1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the
lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided.  These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

C. The Rule of Verticality. The out-of-bounds line represents a vertical plane. Where a player's
lie is marked from a particular point within one meter of the out-of-bounds line pursuant to
the rules, the one-meter relief may be taken from the particular point upward or downward along
the vertical plane.

D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an
official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has
been made, the disc shall be considered out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in
accordance with 803.09 B counting all throws made prior to the determination of the in-bounds status of the original lie. If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a
determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower
and the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.07 B and C.

 

 

803.11 Lost Disc

A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit

B. A player whose disc is declared lost shall receive one penalty throw. If the throw was made from the tee, the player will re-tee for the next shot. If not made from the tee, the group will determine the approximate lie from which the throw was made, and the player will throw again from that lie. The director may designate a drop zone for lost discs on a particular hole. If a drop zone is provided, the player may throw from there instead of the previous lie or the tee. In all cases the original throw plus one penalty throw shall be counted in the player's score.

C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that
was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.  

D. A marker disc that is lost shall be replaced in its approximate lie as agreed to by a
majority of the group or an official with no penalty.