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I just read a comment on another discussion that Mark E wrote.  It states that our permanent baskets (the Pro, top of the line targets) don't catch well.  I agree, a perfectly placed putt should stick and as we know they don't always do.  Now I have heard a lot of opinions about this subject.  I would like to hear some of your Ideas about how to improve targets to prevent this unfortunate extra stroke that we all have to deal with from time to time.  

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I agree, What really kills me is when im playing someone and they step up to putt (with a horrified look on their face) throw a 20ft putt that flaps and flops like a wounded duck all the to the basket then barely grazes the chains and drops neatly into the basket, then I step up, putt a nice firm putt just to watch it hit dead center and spit straight back out to the ground. How do we fix this? I vote that laser guided mini rocket systems be mounted on top of baskets that blast away putts that dont meet optimal flight requirments. That would end any and all putting complaints haha.
I have a question, Mark. How often do you miss a putt from 2 feet away? I would guess that you're just about 99.999999% on those putts. Why?

Because at that range you're able to put exactly the exact right amount of speed and angle on the putt to make it to make it hit a sweet spot on the basket or pole and stick. This become harder to do as you move further away.

I doubt there is a perfect style that allows anyone to be able to put that exact formula on the disc from further away 100% of the time, but I still don't think you can blame the basket..
I may not be a great putter. I may not be a natural. I may even be worthy of scorn for my putting skills. But from 2 feet I am solid. Well over 50%. No brag, just fact. :)

From 2 feet I have this special technique. I reach forward on my tiptoes and place the disc firmly into the bottom of the basket and only release once the disc is laying flat in the cage.

Ok, but let's be realistic. A good player has a 40 foot putt with strong swirling winds. He snaps it on a clean, flat, firm line right at the center of the chains. Most times that putt is good. Sometimes it bounces out or blows through. In the microsecond before impact no human alive can predict what will happen. No one can identify the flaw in that putt. It looks perfect. But here is a bit of irony: the more perfect that putt is to the center of the post, the more likely it bounces straight back out.

Let's say that putt bounces out (which happens way too often). Does the player change his putting style the next time he gets a similar opportunity? No, he didn't do anything wrong. He threw it exactly like he hoped to. And there is no putting style which has a better chance of working. He just got screwed.

What does this common scenario show us? That the design of baskets is flawed. The perfect putt in ball golf does not bounce back out. The home run which lands in the stands in baseball is good every time. The shot which enters the goal in soccer is good every time.

A basketball net does not reject shots which get to the bottom. There is no invisible film between the goal posts in football. In the hundred yard dash there is no hidden quicksand which swallows runners.

Disc golf deserves better. Disc golfers deserve better.

The Grabinator 9000 Guaranteed to catch a flawless or not so flawless putt
You sure thats not a Binford 6500 series?
I would be soooo terrified to retrieve my putt from the "grabinator." I could also see this basket going "wax on, wax off" from time to time, denying all attempts at the bucket and you'd have to have a buddy or two put the thing in a submission hold just to tap out your triple bogey 5 footer.
With Chuck posting this on 2 other boards that I have seen and this being posted here it makes me wonder if there is already something happening.

You state 2 very telling things about putting. "Weak putts are rewarded. Perfect putts are rejected." and "He snaps it on a clean, flat, firm line right at the center of the chains." A clean flat firm line isn't always the best shot for every occasion but it might be the most consistent most of the time. The good putters I play with that throw that way mostly learned it on cones. Cones favor flat, firm throws every time because soft, lobbing putts with little spin just hit the top. Chains aren't like that. Now I'm not saying our current design is perfect. Designing a basket to favor one putting style isn't perfect either.

As you throw at chains they present a different look from each angle because there is a limited number of chains. In addition different baskets have different size links and different numbers of chains. This is an issue. I have a solution.

What we really need is all cone baskets, but modify the top part to about half the current diameter and make them taller. In addition, keep the basket the current diameter but make it deeper and have the rim come inward slightly. Fair for everyone and it wouldn't favor any specific putting style. Now if I could just figure out a way to get a nice chain sound out of it it would be perfect.
I thought that my scenario was being fairly realistic as to a situation that happens in golf quite often. Short putts, ie, those that are between 1 and 10 feet happen often. I very very rarely see a good player miss those putts, regardless of whether they're able to drop the disc in the bottom of the basket or not. The basket functions just fine at that range.

As you move further away, it becomes harder to throw the disc in such a manner that it stays in 100%. I had thought that was how the game was supposed to work.
Hear hear
I agree with your logic, and to some extent I think you're right. It's harder to control your speed when the putts are longer. That's also why it's good that the baskets are raised. You can't just blast at them because it you miss completely, you'll leave a long come-back putt.

You said one thing worth noting (okay several, but this is the one I'm choosing to highlight), that being that baskets function well at short range. You said up to 10 feet. I'd say you can push that out to 15 feet. There seems to be something that happens at the velocity required to propel a disc 20 feet that changes everything. When you start putting there and out you seem to have some goofy bounce-outs. A drive off the tee at the heart is NEVER gauranteed to stay in. You cannot put more loft on it, or float it in there at 300 ft. There is no technique that will insure that a shot to the same spot stays in and that's the problem with putting....say at 50-80 ft. Yes, you can loft the disc a bit more in that range or spin putt, but the differentiation between the two styles begins to break down at those ranges. Here is where baskets DO NOT catch well. Very good shots with acceptable amounts of speed, loft and position in the chains have a much greater tendency to bounce out or spit through and it's all too arbitrary which ones. I do enough putting practice to know this to be true. There are putts that are right where I want them that come out from time to time. That's the problem. The exact same shot can behave differently each time.

That said, I think baskets catch reasonably well and I think you are making good points about learning a putting style that minimizes the potential for spit outs/bounce outs. I do think we should be continually thinking of solutions to these problems however.

Oh and to those who say if you putt too fast in ball golf, the ball goes right over the hole:

When you putt in ball golf, the ball stays on the ground and you putt in a straight line. I'm not saying it's easy to read a green, but in ball golf, you choose your line and try to hit a clean stroke with the right speed. In DISC GOLF, you have to do those things (the wind becomes the green in disc golf) and choose your loft, nose angle, and amount of spin...oh and the discs don't spin in the direction of your target like in ball golf. So if someone hits the sweet spot at 80 feet they should be rewarded with a putt that sticks...period.
Most baskets do suck, but some are better than others and some are actully good. Some people do try to improve the targets for the future, while this may seem like a shamless plug..... Its not, I designed our baskets after playing for years and seeing the problems with current targets and decided to try and fix them, because no one else was. The thing is most disc golf companys sell 2 main staples that pay the bills, discs and/or clothing. Spending money to come up with a new design when the already have one that works pretty good doesnt help them sell more discs or apperell so they aren't gonna do it. Our baskets aren't perfect (yet) but they are way closer than the rest, the link has info about some of the changes we have made to previous designs to try and combat some of the main problems of the past.


http://www.discking1.com/Kingpin_basket_specs.html
Id be very curious to try this one out

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