who owns what ?

I'm interested in knowing just what the world thinks. When local clubs, TD's and promoters (or anyone) send out a request for submissions to be considered for printing on discs, merchandise, or other applications, what concerns and questions should the artist have ? Should the artist be thrilled to have their work considered ? in fact, should the artist be so thrilled to have their art considered that just by submitting an entry they totally give away that art ? Who owns the art on discs ? Is there a statute of limitations on ownership ? Does it go without saying that ownership always stays with the creator ? Is there a common thought on just what compensation should or could be ?

Should the artist grant perpetual non exclusive usage rights of an image for any minimal compensation, that from what I hear may range from 1 disc to $150.00. If the artists hears that for minimal compensation they forgive any rights and privileges, should they quickly turn and run the other way. I am not trying to discuss this to gain huge monetary compensation for artists and their work but I'm curious just what the artists, disc golfers, promoters, tournament sponsors and directors think of the topic. I do know that there are a few groups of graphic artists here on DGRUS, let the world know your thoughts. I'm curious and want everyone to understand that I am not asking "is this legal" I'm just wondering if others see this as more of an moral issue, instead of an legal issue ? I ask this question knowing that 100% us involved in the organization and promotional aspects of disc golf are not making money and I don't think artist should be an exception. I just ask - once you draw it and they come, who gets compensated ? there's the topic, let's chat

[Mike Inscho]

I think the decisions are up to the artist and the client. The artist can easily back out if the deal isn't right. I know that If I did a design...( if not taking up tooo much of my time) I'd want free entry into the competition and some plastic and merch that had my work on it. If an artist is worried about using and still owning that art, that all needs to be worked out in the initial agreement. The creator has the ultimate decision in my opinion.

[get your discs and godiscn]

Mike Inscho said:

I think the decisions are up to the artist and the client. The artist can easily back out if the deal isn't right. I know that If I did a design...( if not taking up tooo much of my time) I'd want free entry into the competition and some plastic and merch that had my work on it. If an artist is worried about using and still owning that art, that all needs to be worked out in the initial agreement. The creator has the ultimate decision in my opinion.

I'm in total agreement, I guess what I'm getting at is that maybe some discussion may result in creating some understanding of what may become some type of "industry standard" based on fairness to both parties. what that industry standard may be is a confusing issue and very much all over the charts, agree ?

[Tino "SilverBack" Medina]

If I was asked to draw something for a disc, I would simply want a few copies of the disc. No more than 5 copies. If the person wanted to pay me, so be it. All this is part of the arangement and needs to be agreed upon. I ma not a struggling artist and in no way make a living from my art, so it would be easier for me to do it this way. I know some artisit deserve compensation so I cant really say how they may feel but I think a sit down meeting, a look at how many and how long of a production run would help to decide the compenstaion for the artist!

[Tino "SilverBack" Medina]

Also, if you have "sold" your art for this, I feel it is no longer your art. You have been asked to produce something for this person, so by doing so, you are "selling" this piece to him.

[Disc Player Sports]

Been doing ART for years and every situation is different.
Everybody seems to want everything for nothing.
Negotiate what you want, before submitting anything.
Don't let them see anything!
If you are willing to do it for free than, say that you would like to get something back.
You make t-shirts, printed materials, etc.
Done artwork for free entry fee before. Remember TD's don't have much to offer.
Even consider your art sponsorship. (don't be cheap).
Basically what do you want. Before an idea is even thought of.

Personally see the FFT Logo and various other designs...

[Sub-Par Disc Golf]

I agree that the decission should be between the artist and the client, as it is in any other industry. I think that it is the artist responsability to come to a fair set of terms. Generally, when a piece of work is created for a client, it becomes that clients property. They reserve the right to use it in any application they see fit. With all that being said, I think things change a little if your talking about CFR or TFR discs. If a T.D. or promoter is using one of your designs to make a profit, and that profit is not going back to the club or tournament, there are some issues that need to be staightened out. But again, that burden falls on we the artists. If an artist is looking for cash residuals for there work, there in the wrong sport. Disc Golf is still an infant by industry standards, so to try to develope an industry standand for our art work would be difficult to say the least. So for now, look at your art work as food to help that infant grow and hopefully it will barf up some cash some day.

[ROBEY the one.]

i want to respond before i read to many of your responses. IMO.... the artwork always will belong to the artist, the image is only borrowed to the other person, and therefore never be able to be printed and or stamped without his/her consent. as far as compensation, i think that should be agreed upon by both parties before any reproduction of the image or images is started, or restarted for a second or more runs.

and just gonna throw this out there,even though i hold discgolfers to a slightly higher standard, as we all seem to treat each other like family, but anything is possible. but if someone looks at someone else's art then produces something very similar afterwords and attempts to gain compensation for that art, that compensation should belong to the original artist. ( that's dirty as fuck btw )

i personally don't ask for compensation unless the design is for the purpose of making money such as something printed on a shirt that would be for sale to the public. if its a tourney stamp or something i would expect a lil something like some free plastic with my art on it, but if i didn't get anything for it i wouldn't be sour about it. unless a deal was previously talked about. i believe a verbal contract should be upheld no matter what, your word is your honor.

[ROBEY the one.]

but in the case where the artwork is commisioned by someone for use in stamps, t shirts, patches, stickers... the artist is selling the image and should be Paid a agreed upon amount by both parties with the consenseus that the image may be used as many times and for as long as a time period as made known to both parties before any exchange of art for money is made.

I am discking said:

i want to respond before i read to many of your responses. IMO.... the artwork always will belong to the artist, the image is only borrowed to the other person, and therefore never be able to be printed and or stamped without his/her consent. as far as compensation, i think that should be agreed upon by both parties before any reproduction of the image or images is started, or restarted for a second or more runs.

and just gonna throw this out there,even though i hold discgolfers to a slightly higher standard, as we all seem to treat each other like family, but anything is possible. but if someone looks at someone else's art then produces something very similar afterwords and attempts to gain compensation for that art, that compensation should belong to the original artist. ( that's dirty as fuck btw )

i personally don't ask for compensation unless the design is for the purpose of making money such as something printed on a shirt that would be for sale to the public. if its a tourney stamp or something i would expect a lil something like some free plastic with my art on it, but if i didn't get anything for it i wouldn't be sour about it. unless a deal was previously talked about. i believe a verbal contract should be upheld no matter what, your word is your honor.

[Mike Inscho]

Yeah, I understand that TD's and Course Designers that want something for a specific course or event don't have a lot to work with...they're just regular Joe's with a job like everyone else. I believe I'm fair when I make an agreement. Usually I'll just want merchandise. Whatever gets printed out with my design will be a free thing that I get. It really all depends on how long it would take me to do. The main thing is that it gets my name out there for more business opportunities. It does take more time than most think to do the latest and greatest thing. Especially a sleek design that will appeal to the masses. I'll agree there. I usually will only do jobs for people when I have some "free" time on my hands which isn't very often.

[get your discs and godiscn]

I am discking said:

but in the case where the artwork is commisioned by someone for use in stamps, t shirts, patches, stickers... the artist is selling the image and should be Paid a agreed upon amount by both parties with the consenseus that the image may be used as many times and for as long as a time period as made known to both parties before any exchange of art for money is made.

I am discking said:

i want to respond before i read to many of your responses. IMO.... the artwork always will belong to the artist, the image is only borrowed to the other person, and therefore never be able to be printed and or stamped without his/her consent. as far as compensation, i think that should be agreed upon by both parties before any reproduction of the image or images is started, or restarted for a second or more runs.

and just gonna throw this out there,even though i hold discgolfers to a slightly higher standard, as we all seem to treat each other like family, but anything is possible. but if someone looks at someone else's art then produces something very similar afterwords and attempts to gain compensation for that art, that compensation should belong to the original artist. ( that's dirty as fuck btw )

i personally don't ask for compensation unless the design is for the purpose of making money such as something printed on a shirt that would be for sale to the public. if its a tourney stamp or something i would expect a lil something like some free plastic with my art on it, but if i didn't get anything for it i wouldn't be sour about it. unless a deal was previously talked about. i believe a verbal contract should be upheld no matter what, your word is your honor.

smart news and opinions. I hope that we can continue hearing input from artist and non artists alike

[Spin Theory]

it depends. If i do some art for free or for free intry to a tourney or other nominal payment, i do not in my mind give that touney or club exclusive rights to the art. But if say DISCGOLFERSr.us contracted me to do a logo/banner for the website and paid me $300. then the art is theres.

if i entered a contest to design a logo for the new "DISCRAFT misquitoeater", I would asume that submiting the art to them was giving them rights to it.... the art would be based around thier copywrited company name and disc name. however that said if I did not win the contest i would remove the copywrited content and possibly reuse the graphic.

If i do art for my local club like the OMAHA DISC GOLF CLUB logo.. it is theirs but flyer art is mine.

I guess what i am saying is, if the art is contracted and paid for and it was understood from the begining that once complete the rights to the art belonged to the customer it is theirs... but they should have to pay for it...

Oh and you dont have to give them the full layered (photoshop) or vector (illustrator) file. give them a highquality flat jpg. that way if they want changes they have to come back to you. Layered PSD cost more.

the above comment is correct. Many times the TD or club can not afford my time. So i am willing to give art away.
one thing i have done is. I print up tshirts and ask the TD for free entry to the tourney, at least one of what ever they print with my design on it, and finaly i ask them to let me sell tshirts out of there tourney central (typicaly i throw in a couple tees for prises or sponsor a CTP hole.

[get your discs and godiscn]

Well stated indeed and we're on the same page. It's unfortunate that many don't think of the artist as a paid professional, many don't realize that they have studied as many hours as their attorneys and physicians and in most occasions, I find that art and designs provided to people are thought of as an HONOR TO THE ARTIST to be accepted and shown at tournaments, on posters, shirts or whatever the case may be. At least, that's what I find true in Michigan, but then again, I find most everything about Michigan unique. Any jobs Omaha ?
Spin Theory said:

it depends. If i do some art for free or for free intry to a tourney or other nominal payment, i do not in my mind give that touney or club exclusive rights to the art. But if say DISCGOLFERSr.us contracted me to do a logo/banner for the website and paid me $300. then the art is theres.

if i entered a contest to design a logo for the new "DISCRAFT misquitoeater", I would asume that submiting the art to them was giving them rights to it.... the art would be based around thier copywrited company name and disc name. however that said if I did not win the contest i would remove the copywrited content and possibly reuse the graphic.

If i do art for my local club like the OMAHA DISC GOLF CLUB logo.. it is theirs but flyer art is mine.

I guess what i am saying is, if the art is contracted and paid for and it was understood from the begining that once complete the rights to the art belonged to the customer it is theirs... but they should have to pay for it...

Oh and you dont have to give them the full layered (photoshop) or vector (illustrator) file. give them a highquality flat jpg. that way if they want changes they have to come back to you. Layered PSD cost more.

the above comment is correct. Many times the TD or club can not afford my time. So i am willing to give art away.
one thing i have done is. I print up tshirts and ask the TD for free entry to the tourney, at least one of what ever they print with my design on it, and finaly i ask them to let me sell tshirts out of there tourney central (typicaly i throw in a couple tees for prises or sponsor a CTP hole.