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Do you know why you believe what you believe?? Can you prove it with verses? Do you "search the scriptures daily?" I'd like to discuss doctrine if anyone is willing. There are thousands of churches out there, and they all teach different things. Why? The bible says (1 Cor 1:10) [10] Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment

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Cam
First off let me just say Welcome to DGFJ and thank you for joining our group, it is my understanding that you are very knowledgeable in Doctrine and I feel the group will be blessed by your knowledge. With that said let me also state that I have seen and read your much heated / passionate debate's on the PDGA Website, at times I would say those discussion's turned ugly as the two of you tried to make your points to each other.I would welcome anyone who wants to discuss doctrine NOT debate doctrine with you to do so in a Christian manor only, I would also like to make it clear that everyone's opinion or interpitation of doctrine is just that "yours not Gods" and we will only truely know gods word when we are at his feet in Heaven Amen...Amen
I hope this discussion will be used as a tool for us all to be better equipt to go out and speard and defened the word of God.
Thank you for the warm welcome. I want to say that I have no desire to argue with people, let the verses say what they mean and mean what they say. No one looks at the sports page of the newspaper where it says "SF beat NY 2-0, and then says "hmm, I wonder if SF really beat NY???" Believe what it says.

Me and David disagreed on our last discussion via the pdga website. We have made amends and both realize that some of the things said were not profitable for Christ. With this being said, I still stand by my beliefs, and prove them with doctrine. Doctrine is what the churches don't want to talk about, because to know doctrine, requires you to study, not just read your bible. Not just spend your hour or 2 per week sitting in services thinking about where you all are going for lunch. For instance, did you, or do you know that the Apostle Paul taught and still teaches a completely different doctrine then the 12 apostles?

I do believe we can know and understand God's word while we are here on earth.-why else would he leave it with us??? Look at 1Tim 2:3-4 [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth . Now look at Eph 3:9-11 "[9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,[11] According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:"
He places the uttmost importance on his word. Look at John 1:1-2 "John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God. Looks like his word is pretty important to me if it says "and the Word was God"(notice the capital W?) Don't stop there, go on a few more verses in the same book and chapter: John 1:14 "[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
That says that the Word (again capital W) was made flesh, and dwelt among us. Anyone who reads this chapter of course knows that the "Word" in verse 14 is of course none other then Jesus Christ. Is there anyone out there that will argue that Jesus Christ was NOT perfect?

We as Christians should be humble enough to learn from others. That is my desire to helpm others and to learn from others. I ask that those that reply or post have the same attitude.
What about Mark 16:16? Look at these verses. It seems to me in verse 16 that being baptized is VERY important: Mark 16:16-18 "[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

Did you cast out Devils after you were baptized? Do you or did you speak in new tongues? Does your local assembly handle snakes? Do you have the ability to lay hands on people and them recover?

I'm not trying to be a smart mouth, but look at what the verse says, and answer those questions truthfully to yourself.

No did you???
Is Mark 16:16 the only place where it says He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, I couldn't find anything else but I only did a quick search.
So because you could only find it 1 time, is it still not true? What does the verse say?... "AND IS BAPTIZED" If you are going to to baptized, you need to take the other things that come with it. (Casting out of devils, speakig in tongues, handling serpents, and healing folks)<----- they ALL go together at the time this was being taught.

I do NOT believe 1 has to be water baptized to be saved. I believe that verse is true though, but just not to us in this dispensation. We know now through Paul, that water baptism is no longer neccesary. Eph 4:5 says there is 1 baptism. Now go look at 1Cor 12:13. It tells you what that 1 baptism is...Spiritual. We NO longer have a need to be water baptized, we are spiritually baptized INTO the Body of Christ.
So because you could only find it 1 time, is it still not true?... No I believe it I was just woundering.
I was just wondering if you believed the verses. Water baptism was a requirement in Matthew mark, luke and John. But, when Paul received the revelation of the "Mystery" (Rom 16:25, Eph Chpt 3, Col 1:25-29) the program changed. Paul even water baptized people when he first started his ministry. Why? Because that is what was going on at the time. He got progressive revelation from the risen Lord. But again, the message changed. Look at 1Cor 1:14. He tells of who he has baptized, and there aren't very many. Then in vs 17 he says "For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. It actually says that baptism takes away from the cross, or makes it of None Effect. I rely on the Cross, and what was accomplished, don't you? That is quite different then Mark 16:16 isn't it? How could he say that Christ sent him NOT to baptize, if the program hadn't changed from Mark 16:16? Baptism was pretty important there. Look also at Luke 7:29-30 "[29] And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
[30] But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
We both know that John's baptism was of water, correct? Look at John 1:31. "31] And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Have you ever heard of, or been taught about the "Mystery" that Paul teaches and preaches?
This is in response to Jack's caution about doctrine and Cam's subsequent defense. I would like to say I appreciated both of your words on this thread. I would like to add a note about the limits of doctrine and understanding. These verses from 1 Corinthians 13 came to mind and I'd like to share them and then expound upon them a little.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

To me these words of Paul's reinforce what Jack said: "We will only truely know Gods word when we are at his feet in Heaven." I'd key in on the word "truely."

I think the hesitancy that most Christians feel in discussing doctrine is that it has serious potential to divide. I think we need to come to scripture humbly with the acceptance that we are human and lack God's wisdom and understanding. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways." (Isaiah 55:8). The lines I find especially interesting in that part of 1 Corinthians 13 that I quoted are:

"...where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears..."

When you couple this with the fact that 1 Corinthians 13 is all about the virtues of Love (which scripture says God IS), the outcome to me is that Paul says and he says it elsewhere that people may disagree with nuances of doctrine, but the manifestation of Love in one's life, as shown by acts of social justice, trumps the acquistion and even to some extent accuracy ("we know in part") of knowledge.

That said, I too appreciate your challenge Cam, for EVERYONE has a doctrine, whether they claim to or not. It's best to have a life that is fully examined. This is only possible under the guide of scripture AND the Holy Spirit. So where is the right mix of doctrine and acceptance of the Divine Mystery? I'm not sure. I guess that is what gets worked out every morning as we meet...truly meet with our Lord, our teacher, and our friend: Jesus. He is the one who should dictate what is said and what goes unsaid as we discuss doctrine with others. We challenge and we wait and pray that the other person comes humbly to the table of discussion and prays over what they've receieved. But the frustration can be that we cannot force this process. We declare the Word of God to the best of our understanding, as directed by the Holy Spirit and then we trust. We can take solace in the fact that our words that we speak in error will pass away as Paul promises. So it is a risk worth taking, so I thank you Cam.

I'm glad you worked things out with that person on the other forum. I did not see that conversation and I do not have any desire to do so. I do know that if you reconciled and sought the Lord's forgiveness, then it is finished. We all get heated about our beliefs from time to time and I've spoken foolishly enough times to know that I'm not one to judge the rash word. Your words in this thread have already challenged me and gotten me into the scriptures.

I want to say more, but I think I'll end my words here. I had something else to say, but my wife came in to talk to me and now it's gone...I'll take her interference as Divine intervention! :-)

I would like to add these words to the end of this post as food for thought on this topic. It seems to me that it is the core doctrine that is not up for debate, but its implications should always be our dialogue as believers. I'll let it stand for itself and let's keep talking!

Romans 10:5-15...

5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]
8 months later/late -- a hardy Amen! No matter their beliefs over doctrine, who can stand up to good old Agape Love.

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