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A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and
completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area. A disc thrown in water shall be deemed to be
at rest once it is floating or is moving only by the action of the water or the wind on the
water. See section 803.03 F. The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of --bounds. In order to
consider the disc as out-of bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

Soo my question to ponder regards the phrase "reasonable evidence" written in this rule. What do you think constitutes reasonable evidence?

This one is a big question for us on our home course where there is a bunch of water due to a newly expanded drainage pond. Often you cannot see the water's surface from the tee. So if a disc goes in, you don't see or hear it splash. Then you walk up to the water and you cannot see your disc and it's not in the reeds. Do you play that as OB or as Lost Disc. I have a friend that says that if you can see it in the water you play it as OB. Whereas I think it is clear, based on watching the flight if the disc is in the water or not on those holes. Can the group agree that the line of the disc in the air is "reasonable evidence?" Some of these holes you'd probably be guaranteed a circle 3 if it was OB, or you'd get at least a 4 if it was Lost Disc.

What does reasonable evidence mean?

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Replies to This Discussion

I would say the following:
1. Seeing the disc land in the water
2. Hearing the disc land in the water
3. A third party observing either 1 or 2
4. In absence of a disc that flew toward the water and "most likely" landed in the water

I would say for number 4 that it would be a decision made by the group as a whole.
OB that guarantees a circle 3 is not very good from a design point of view. It might be better to restrict the OB options to a drop zone or retee rather than last place in bounds. Especially if you can't see the disc actually go out of bounds. If you can't see it go OB, how can you mark the last place in bounds?
Other than #1-3 that John listed, I can't really think of any other reasonable evidence, unless you have the water covered by a thin sheet of ice, and there is a hole in the ice near where the disc was expected to hit the ice sheet.

It could be very _likely_ , from witnessing the shot, that the disc is in an OB area, but "evidence" suggests to me that there is something tangible to be used in assessing the state of the disc in question. Even if all there was on the hole was barren, flat ground and water OB, with no reeds or anything like that hiding the disc, the fact that the disc cannot be found on the barren, flat ground is not evidence in itself that the disc is in the water.

I don't thnk saying, "It's not here, so it must be there" is reasonable evidence. It may, and probably is in this instance, "reasonable", but it is not "evidence".
I'm still pretty new to the sport and just beginning to get into learning the rules so forgive the ignorance of my question, but. . .
Considering the following 2 quotes; "The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds." and "A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area."; it sounds to me like if the disc is touching any part of 'in-bounds' then it is safe.
Real Life Scenario:
I wish I had taken a picture now, but tell me what you think.
On hole 10 at Morley Field there is a chain link fence along the right side of the top level which serves as the out-of-bounds line. I didn't put quite enough hyser on it one day and my disc wound up landing on the other side of the fence. There was just enough of a gap at the bottom of the fence however to allow about an inch of my disc to sneak into what is considered in bounds. My friends and I couldn't agree whether or not being on the line was considered in, or out of bounds. I wound up taking a penalty, but now I'm wondering if thats the right ruling considering the fact that the disc was not, "completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area."
Godfather said:
I'm still pretty new to the sport and just beginning to get into learning the rules so forgive the ignorance of my question, but. . .
Considering the following 2 quotes; "The out-of-bounds line itself is considered out-of-bounds." and "A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area."; it sounds to me like if the disc is touching any part of 'in-bounds' then it is safe.
Real Life Scenario:
I wish I had taken a picture now, but tell me what you think.
On hole 10 at Morley Field there is a chain link fence along the right side of the top level which serves as the out-of-bounds line. I didn't put quite enough hyser on it one day and my disc wound up landing on the other side of the fence. There was just enough of a gap at the bottom of the fence however to allow about an inch of my disc to sneak into what is considered in bounds. My friends and I couldn't agree whether or not being on the line was considered in, or out of bounds. I wound up taking a penalty, but now I'm wondering if thats the right ruling considering the fact that the disc was not, "completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area."

If your disc is on the OB side and is merely touching the line (in this case, the line is marked by the fence), then it's still OB. But if your disc was "straddling" the line (the line crossed through the disc), then you're in bounds. I'd say since you snuck through under that fence, you snuck in-bounds.

The line about the OB line itself being OB is confusing the point to a degree...but that's another can of worms I won't get into. Completely surrounded by OB is the only operative part of the rule you need to concern yourself with. If your disc isn't completely contained within the area designated by the line as OB, then you're not OB.
Thanks JC.
Not going to attack, just correct. You are incorrect. A disc is not out of bounds until it comes to rest in an out of bounds area. Therefore if you don't see the disc come to rest in the OB area, you can't call it OB.

Unless the last point the disc was seen was an out of bounds position from which it would be next to impossible for it to re-enter in-bounds, in which case I'd say you had reasonable evidence to say it was OB. But the disc merely crossing the line is not evidence that it remained in the OB area through the end of its flight.

Chad Curtis said:
I'm trying to help Mr. Swanson--please don't attack me. I do believe that if a disc crosses the OB line it is then ruled OB at that point --whether you find it or not. If your group agrees the disc was last seen crossing in to OB territory then you don't need to consider the "lost disc" part of the situation. Come to an agreement as a group as to where the disc left "in-bounds" and mark it at that spot. So if everyone agreed that your throw looked like it sailed into OB Territory you can just call it OB at that point. Mark the spot, take the stroke and throw your next shot.
I'm pretty sure.
Chad Curtis said:
JC said:
Thanks for the correction. I agree with what you said but I think I might have another question. I'm not saying you can give up looking for a disc just to take the OB rule. I was refering to a situation I played in where the disc went OB, our group continued to look for 3 minutes, declared it lost and had the player re-tee with penalty. Later the TD said if your disc gets lost in an area of OB you don't have to continue looking--you can declare it OB at the point it went OB. His rationale was that the disc was considered OB before it became lost--so the OB rule would apply first making the lost disc rule irrelevant. Thinking about it now i can se it going the other way. Thanks for the info.

You guys played it by the rule book, your TD seems to want to circumvent the book a bit. By strictest interpretation of the rules, a disc can not be considered OB until it's found at rest in OB. By definition, a disc in flight is never OB...it's only OB when it comes to rest. So it can't be OB before it is considered lost.

But for the situations in which it isn't possible to find/retrieve the disc that is known to be OB (you saw it go into the water, for example), they have the "reasonable evidence" clause specified in the book. But absent knowing (having reasonable evidence) that the disc is "lost" in an OB area, it can't be assumed to be OB. It is lost. I've encountered more than one instance in which a disc believed to be OB (but not found there) turned up in bounds, so just because the disc entered an area of OB does not mean it stayed there.
JC said:
Chad Curtis said:
JC said:
Thanks for the correction. I agree with what you said but I think I might have another question. I'm not saying you can give up looking for a disc just to take the OB rule. I was refering to a situation I played in where the disc went OB, our group continued to look for 3 minutes, declared it lost and had the player re-tee with penalty. Later the TD said if your disc gets lost in an area of OB you don't have to continue looking--you can declare it OB at the point it went OB. His rationale was that the disc was considered OB before it became lost--so the OB rule would apply first making the lost disc rule irrelevant. Thinking about it now i can se it going the other way. Thanks for the info.

You guys played it by the rule book, your TD seems to want to circumvent the book a bit. By strictest interpretation of the rules, a disc can not be considered OB until it's found at rest in OB. By definition, a disc in flight is never OB...it's only OB when it comes to rest. So it can't be OB before it is considered lost.

But for the situations in which it isn't possible to find/retrieve the disc that is known to be OB (you saw it go into the water, for example), they have the "reasonable evidence" clause specified in the book. But absent knowing (having reasonable evidence) that the disc is "lost" in an OB area, it can't be assumed to be OB. It is lost. I've encountered more than one instance in which a disc believed to be OB (but not found there) turned up in bounds, so just because the disc entered an area of OB does not mean it stayed there.

Good conversation here. I would tend to agree with JC mostly on this one. If the OB area is land and you saw it go into tall weeds...essentially seeing it hit the ground and later you cannot find it...I would say you play lost disc because there is a chance that it may have rolled back out farther down the fairway in bounds.

BUT I disagree with most on here in that I believe there are instances when it is clear to a group that a disc is in the water when you didn't actually see it go into the water. I say that comes down to a call made by the group. The example I'll use is a very high hyzer heading 100 feet out into the ocean, though you can't see that particular part of the ocean, you CAN see where the shoreline is and It is CLEARLY going to hyzer into the ocean. I would call everyone in the group witnessing this phenomenon with their eyes, reasonable evidence...and since the PDGA doesn't define that term, then it is up to the group to make that determination. If your eyes witnessing the splash of the disc (not actually evidence...maybe you saw something else hit the water...say another disc...how can you PROVE you weren't mistaken unless you identify your disc...we agree that the splash is reasonable, but it's a sensory call) was good enough reasonable evidence for a group, then so should observing a line that will clearly carry the disc into the water. If the group isn't sure, then yes, lost...but when a majority is convinced, OB.

Long story short...this is an area of the rules that needs to be ammended.

I think for the local tourny in my hometown I'll take JCs advice though and always have a spotter from my group on the blind water holes. It'd serve us all well to avoid a potential extra stroke due to LOST DISC on those holes.
Your rhetorical question leads me to another point about water OB. Blind OBs are on a lot of courses. Usually they are so far off that you wouldn't think someone would throw there, but they do and then the group is left to estimate where they think the disc crossed into OB based on the landing spot of the disc and the flight of the disc. Not a very precise way to have to do it, but what else can you do based on current rules? Most players don't really have a problem with this. I have a problem with a disc being declared lost when it is clear to reasonable individuals that the disc was headed at the water. I believe the individuals in the group have the ability to make that assessment as the consensus of an honest and reasonable group, just as the same group has the ability to mark discs on blind land OBs.

krupicka said:
OB that guarantees a circle 3 is not very good from a design point of view. It might be better to restrict the OB options to a drop zone or retee rather than last place in bounds. Especially if you can't see the disc actually go out of bounds. If you can't see it go OB, how can you mark the last place in bounds?
Under the current rules, it is a group consensus for where the disc was last in bounds. IMO for blind OB (and even more so where a disc cannot be found in the OB to aid in determining where it went OB), a good TD will limit the OB options to either the previous lie or a designated drop zone. This is well within the current rules.

Brandon Swanson said:
Your rhetorical question leads me to another point about water OB. Blind OBs are on a lot of courses. Usually they are so far off that you wouldn't think someone would throw there, but they do and then the group is left to estimate where they think the disc crossed into OB based on the landing spot of the disc and the flight of the disc. Not a very precise way to have to do it, but what else can you do based on current rules? Most players don't really have a problem with this. I have a problem with a disc being declared lost when it is clear to reasonable individuals that the disc was headed at the water. I believe the individuals in the group have the ability to make that assessment as the consensus of an honest and reasonable group, just as the same group has the ability to mark discs on blind land OBs.

krupicka said:
OB that guarantees a circle 3 is not very good from a design point of view. It might be better to restrict the OB options to a drop zone or retee rather than last place in bounds. Especially if you can't see the disc actually go out of bounds. If you can't see it go OB, how can you mark the last place in bounds?
I'm in complete agreement with you sir. Drop zone would eliminate that auto circle 3 I spoke of. Spotters are also a good move. I hope we can muster some for our tourny this year. Otherwise I think I'll advise groups to supply spotters.

krupicka said:
Under the current rules, it is a group consensus for where the disc was last in bounds. IMO for blind OB (and even more so where a disc cannot be found in the OB to aid in determining where it went OB), a good TD will limit the OB options to either the previous lie or a designated drop zone. This is well within the current rules.

Brandon Swanson said:
Your rhetorical question leads me to another point about water OB. Blind OBs are on a lot of courses. Usually they are so far off that you wouldn't think someone would throw there, but they do and then the group is left to estimate where they think the disc crossed into OB based on the landing spot of the disc and the flight of the disc. Not a very precise way to have to do it, but what else can you do based on current rules? Most players don't really have a problem with this. I have a problem with a disc being declared lost when it is clear to reasonable individuals that the disc was headed at the water. I believe the individuals in the group have the ability to make that assessment as the consensus of an honest and reasonable group, just as the same group has the ability to mark discs on blind land OBs.

krupicka said:
OB that guarantees a circle 3 is not very good from a design point of view. It might be better to restrict the OB options to a drop zone or retee rather than last place in bounds. Especially if you can't see the disc actually go out of bounds. If you can't see it go OB, how can you mark the last place in bounds?

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