Big Time Grey Area.....Stance Related

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line
of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in
803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole
than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

B. Stepping past the marker disc is permitted after the disc is released, except when
putting within 10 meters.

C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc
to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the
thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the
marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full
control of balance before advancing toward the hole.
D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any
obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

E. If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters
directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately
behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of
803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be
valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by
a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A
player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

G. Any throw that involves a validly called and seconded stance violation may not be used by the thrower. Re-throws must be taken from the original lie, prior to subsequent play by others in the group.

H. The player may not retrieve the originally thrown disc prior to the re-throw, except in the
case of a putt from within 10 meters. Where a disc is retrieved in violation of this rule, a
one throw penalty shall be imposed without a warning.



This was debated Yesterday....and could use some clarification!!!!


Can you lean on anything in order to maintain balance during a throw or putt???

I had said...."No, you can't" ....However after reading through the rules I would say you could as long as the obctacle was no closer to the hole or not within the 10 meter putting zone.

Another point brought up... what if it's medically necessary...i.e. a cane, crutch or prostetic leg.

I had said that...."logically, any medical device needed would have to be exempt"


What do you think? How should this be interpretated?

[Brandon Swanson]

It doesn't look like the rules restrict objects you can lean on, unless they are closer to the hole that your mark.

It DOES say that your supporting point behind the mark has to be on the "playing surface," but it doesn't specify what kind of surface your supporting points have to be on. So I guess you could be leaning on a wall, against a tree (provided it doesn't move that tree), with a foot on your bag, leaning on a cane or crutch, or laying down on a yoga mat.

This brings up an interesting thing for me in that I've heard it said that you can put your knee on an upsidedown disc or a towel when you are putting...I've watched video of pros doing it as well, but in the rules it clearly says that your supporting point within 30 cm of the mark has to be on the "playing surface." What do you guys think about that one?

[Brandon Swanson]

Okay, I now see that the Playing Surface is defined thusly:

Playing Surface: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.


So I guess if the TD has said, kneel on a disc or towel...then you're good to go. Otherwise... could they say that after the fact and erase a penalty for illegal stance violation?

[krupicka]

Brandon Swanson said:

Okay, I now see that the Playing Surface is defined thusly:

Playing Surface: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.


So I guess if the TD has said, kneel on a disc or towel...then you're good to go. Otherwise... could they say that after the fact and erase a penalty for illegal stance violation?

Kneeling on a towel was extensively argued on the PDGA message boards about a year ago. The Rules FAQ explains the current philosophy with respect to this. The short answer is it is acceptable to kneel on a small towel. http://www.pdga.com/faq

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

It does say at least 1 supporting point has to be on the playing surface on the line of play...so techinically the other can be proped on something like a trunk of a tree as long as it's not closer to the hole. What I'm asking here...is how should this apply to inside of 10 meters?

As far as using a towel or a disc for your knee, hand, elbow, butt...no problem. I believe...You could even put a towel down at the end of a wet teepad and...run up on to the Towel...I believe these are deemed ok, because it prevents injury to the thrower.

Before the PDGA site changed a few months ago...there was a rule FAQ section....I think this was asked there.

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

It doesn't look like the rules restrict objects you can lean on, unless they are closer to the hole that your mark.


I would definitely agree based on this definition.....

Supporting Point: Any part of a player's body that is in contact with the playing surface or some other object capable of providing support, at the time of release.


A grey area here is....Your lie is right next to a tree, the back edge of your lie is real close to the back edge of the tree...say your leaning forward on that tree with your shoulder or side...at what point does that become an stance violation? If your supporting point...in this case your shoulder.. is closer to the hole at the point it contacts the tree..breaks the plane of verticallity....or is it the tree it's self which could be 99% closer to the hole then your lie?

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

This is a good question for those of you who play on extreme elevation... Say your lie is on a steep hill...you had to climb up using the trees as support...you get there...mark your your lie...reach back behind you to grab a tree. The tree you grab is behind the lie.....so no problem...Right???....but what if that lie is inside 10 meters?

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

I did just relocate that FAQ deal...

Kneeling on a towel
Question: A player’s shot lands in a spot that has very hard, rocky ground. Can she place a towel or pad down in order to prevent abrasions to her body (or to keep her knee/clothes clean and/or dry)?

Important Note (4/15/08): Previously we had ruled that this was not permitted. This opinion reverses that ruling.

Response: Applicable Rules - 802.04 Artificial Devices, 803.05 (Obstacles and Relief) C, 803.04 (Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off) A.1

802.04 allows the use of items that reduce or control abrasion. Towels or pads may fulfill this purpose. Assuming that the unsafe items on the playing surface are not subject to removal or relief under PDGA rule 803.05.C (which covers relief from obstacles to one's stance), she is allowed to place a towel or small pad under any body part, with the exception of her feet (which should already be covered by protective devices such as shoes).

Note: She may move items under 803.05 C and also use a towel or small pad under her knee.

A "small pad" is defined as being 1 centimeter or less in thickness, when compressed.

Conclusion: One may use a towel or small pad (with a maximum compressed thickness of 1 centimeter) in order to prevent harm/abrasions to the body during competitive play. A towel or pad may be used under one's foot only on the tee box.

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

Here's the one on this topic......

Maintaining balance while putting
Question: "I have a good rules question for you involving the stance rules. A player uses an object (in this case a branch) behind him to maintain balance for a putt. First, would this be considered "full control of balance"? Second, could you argue, if the branch is not so large that the players body weight will not move it, that it is a violation of 803.03 D and or 803.04 A because they could have moved the branch less by not hanging on it? Thanks for any input."

Response: The question can be boiled down to: Can a player hold on to an object behind his lie to maintain balance while throwing/putting?
Applicable rules: 803.04 (Stance), 803.05 (Obstacles and Relief), 804.05 (Disqualification and Suspension)

Discussion: The rules do not require that you maintain your balance while putting. You can have a grand mal seizure as long as you don't step ahead of your lie. At the time you decide to step ahead of your lie is when you have to demonstrate balance. This is simply to prove that you are not committing a falling putt, such that you would not be able to stop yourself from falling forward due to the motion of your putt. Grabbing a branch is merely acquiring another support point, which is perfectly legal, as long as it is not ahead of your lie.

Holding on to something BEHIND your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the tree that the golfer is using as a supporting point is in-bounds (803.03.A (3)). The branch must not be moved, or else the player would be in violation of one or both of 803.04.D and 803.05.A, which require you to take the stance that results in the least movement of objects that are part of the course and which prohibit you from moving a branch to "make room for a throwing motion".

Conclusion: A player can hold on to something behind her lie, in certain circumstances, without violating the PDGA rules. In general that which is not prohibited by the PDGA rules is allowed, provided of course, that the action done by the player is not considered "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play". (This, of course, is cheating!)

Other Comments: Many members of the committee have actually tried to hold on to some object behind their lie, while leaning forward to throw or putt. In our opinion this action makes the ensuing throw/putt MORE difficult to accomplish

[Brandon Swanson]

It'd say this dealing of the FAQ section handles your question rather definatively Jamie. Outside or inside of 10 meters doesn't seem to make any difference. You can hold on to stuff as long as you don't cause it to move.

Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane said:

Here's the one on this topic......

Maintaining balance while putting
Question: "I have a good rules question for you involving the stance rules. A player uses an object (in this case a branch) behind him to maintain balance for a putt. First, would this be considered "full control of balance"? Second, could you argue, if the branch is not so large that the players body weight will not move it, that it is a violation of 803.03 D and or 803.04 A because they could have moved the branch less by not hanging on it? Thanks for any input."

Response: The question can be boiled down to: Can a player hold on to an object behind his lie to maintain balance while throwing/putting?
Applicable rules: 803.04 (Stance), 803.05 (Obstacles and Relief), 804.05 (Disqualification and Suspension)

Discussion: The rules do not require that you maintain your balance while putting. You can have a grand mal seizure as long as you don't step ahead of your lie. At the time you decide to step ahead of your lie is when you have to demonstrate balance. This is simply to prove that you are not committing a falling putt, such that you would not be able to stop yourself from falling forward due to the motion of your putt. Grabbing a branch is merely acquiring another support point, which is perfectly legal, as long as it is not ahead of your lie.

Holding on to something BEHIND your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the tree that the golfer is using as a supporting point is in-bounds (803.03.A (3)). The branch must not be moved, or else the player would be in violation of one or both of 803.04.D and 803.05.A, which require you to take the stance that results in the least movement of objects that are part of the course and which prohibit you from moving a branch to "make room for a throwing motion".

Conclusion: A player can hold on to something behind her lie, in certain circumstances, without violating the PDGA rules. In general that which is not prohibited by the PDGA rules is allowed, provided of course, that the action done by the player is not considered "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play". (This, of course, is cheating!)

Other Comments: Many members of the committee have actually tried to hold on to some object behind their lie, while leaning forward to throw or putt. In our opinion this action makes the ensuing throw/putt MORE difficult to accomplish

[Jamie 'gr8rocshot' Ruane]

Yeah it sure does for the most part....and as long as it's not closer to the hole.


Still wondering about an artificial prop though....see I carry an extender pole. Sometimes when I'm parked and putting out...bag on the shoulder drop-ins... I want to naturally lean my weight on that pole as to balance myself, sort of like a cane and make the putt. I actually was doing this a lot a few years back...and one day I was wondering if it was illegal....I figured it was so I forced myself to break that habit....now I make sure it's not touching the ground when I'm putting...but still want to naturally lean on it.

[mr ed]

hey now sounds like you've answered some questions with the new rules as stated.At one point,mother earth was your only kneeling surface allowed.The TD would have final answer if debated/questioned?Gray area,yeah have many on top of my head,Peace