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Say you saw another play foot fault, and called it immediately, and received no second because no one else was paying attention. Can you give the others on the card a warning for not paying attention, for it is was truly a foot fault, they would have saw it and seconded it, and not watching could be considered a courtesy violation?

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Mark, you missed the part of 801 that addresses Bill's concern.

A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the
thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure
anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group
throw
in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure
compliance with the rules.


When coupled with 801.C...I would say Bill may have a valid point. That list is not exhaustive in C, it says "refusal to perform actions expected in the rules" and A. as well as other parts of 801 tells what actions are expected. It is expected that you watch other members of your group throw.
I love the good questions this group puts in and the answers that usually go with them. i missed the part about not watching in the rules myself. I find myself watching the throw more then the feet during teeing off though. So i am watching just not the feet.
I don't see a penalty to the people who missed the violation being violated, LOL. Sure I can read between the lines and see a violation and penalty there, but i am not going to penalize anybody for that.
Hey, you get a freebie to break a lot of rules once...might as well take it! :-) Footfault once to gauge the distance etc.. I'd never do it of course, but I guess you could.
I do this all the time. It does the player a great courtesy in my opinion. You are saving them a warning or a stroke. Often times when someone is stretching out, they don't realize their foot moved from the mark. I've seen a lot of people though that like to fudge the lie a bit, I still tell them before they putt because I want them to know that people are watching. Either way, it's the upstanding thing to do I think, but if you don't want to, I guess that's your perogative.
I agree...it'd be awfully hard to call it on someone. It probably wouldn't be the right way to handle the situation. I'd just tell people to please watch. I probably would try not to let it worry me if they weren't paying attention though. I'm guilty of not watching short putts all the time. Sometimes I'm walking away when people tap in.

I still find the question posed and the related rules interesting though.
Can you give the others on the card a warning for not paying attention, for it is was truly a foot fault, they would have saw it and seconded it, and not watching could be considered a courtesy violation?

I would say no you couldn't give a player a legitimate warning for not paying attention to anothers throw...sounds silly to me too.


As far as saying something before a players throw regarding a stance violation...I say yes, absolutely you should...You are simply educating them to the rules of play...or educating them to your awareness of an incorrect stance...waiting to after a throw is made to tell them they just violated seems kinda shady.
Yes, I saw the "should," however, look at F.

F. Courtesy dictates that players who smoke should not allow
their smoke to disturb other players. Smokers should extinguish their
cigarettes and carry their cigarette butts to a trash can. Disposing of
cigarette butts by dropping them on the ground is littering.

It has a "should" for not throwing your butts on the ground. It then says that disposing of butts on the ground is littering and E. says that littering is a courtesy violation.

Then look at the "should" in B.

B. Players should take care not to produce any distracting
noises or any potential visual distractions for other players who are
throwing. Examples of discourteous actions are: shouting, cursing,
freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing
or kicking golf bags, throwing minis, and advancing on the fairway
beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone
in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

The examples given in B. are things that are certainly distractions that are called as courtesy violations, but again in this case it only says you "should" refrain from these things, but then if you do them, you can be given a courtesy violation. I use these two other cases of "shoulds" to validate the watching language of A. If some shoulds are concrete, then all of them are, that's just logical.

I do know that in the 2006 revision of the rules, in the back of the book it has a "summary of rules changes. In it it said that they changed several "shoulds" to "shalls." I agree that shoulds are not very clear. I think there shouldn't be a single "should" in the PDGA rule book for the reason of our very argument. It looks like logically you COULD say that pretty much none of the courtesy rules have any valid basis since they are pretty much all "shoulds."
A leaner, wow, I must remember that one! I think that as PDGA members we are obligated to inform others of possible violations they could potentialy make during play. without being a prick about it of course.
And I agree with Mark, most people want to play by the rules. Many times I will be playing with casual players, and they will see me do something in regards to rules, and ask why. After a brief explamation they usually say something like,"ohh, thanks amn, I didn't know that."
As far as saying something before a players throw regarding a stance violation...I say yes, absolutely you should...You are simply educating them to the rules of play...or educating them to your awareness of an incorrect stance...waiting to after a throw is made to tell them they just violated seems kinda shady.


In a way if you know someone is about to violate the rules and you say nothing...in a sense your as guilty as them.
If it wasn't for the rules saying that you needed a second, I would agree, but since you do, I believe that other players are obligated to watch, in order to second a call if necessary.

Take the example mentioned where someone was stepping to the side of their lie in the brush, and asked if it was OK to tell them that they were about to commit a foot fault. If you say something, you are jeopardizing yourself for a courtesy violation for talking while the player was starting to throw. If it was just you watching the other player, and you let them throw, even if you did call a foot fault, if there was no one else around to second, then it would not make any difference at all.

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